Girl kills Grandfather over milk

Uh, no. I'm trying to make the point that children are not adults, and thus do not have the same consequences for their actions. The brain, especially the portions governing impulse control, are still forming at thirteen. A teenage killer is not the same thing as an adult killer. The statement was contradictory, and I pointed out as much. I don't have any "strategy", and if it's snarky, that's because I like my posts to come across as humorous. That's kind of what I do.

Seriously, Nihilist, what'd I do?

Delcat wrote:

Nihilist wrote:

If this child was an adult, there wouldn't be any sympathy for her from most anyone- as is most murder cases.

...but she ISN'T an adult. She's a child. You just said that. That's the point. You're saying, "If object X was object Y, she would be treated like object Y." Saying "If this soda was beer, we would all be drunk right now" doesn't make you any more intoxicated on strawberry Crush.

You missed the point, just because they're underaged doesn't mean they're incapable of cold-blooded killing or taking responsibility for their actions.

If you're mature enough to kill someone and understand what you've done as this girl has, you're mature enough to be brought up on murder charges and accept the responsibility without trying to blame videogames or use a Freudian excuse.

Quote :

and thus do not have the same consequences for
their actions. The brain, especially the portions governing impulse
control, are still forming at thirteen.

So? So there should be no consequence for any wrongs I purposefully commit? The fuck? Teens may have lowered impulse control but I can safely say that there's a good many teenagers who HAVEN'T stabbed someone, so I'm not sure why that's a valid excuse for her actions.

Delcat wrote:

The brain, especially the portions governing impulse control, are still forming at thirteen. A teenage killer is not the same thing as an adult killer.

EDIT: Oh, I see you bothered your lazy hole to read the entire thread. Well, my point still stands.

I'm not saying she wasn't responsible for her actions. I'm saying that the amount of responsibility differs between adults and children. I'm also saying that psychology is NOT a black-and-white thing. Like Cyberwulf said, experience is not universal. There's not enough here to say what the hell is going on in the life of this kid. That's a job for a psychologist with full access to her history.

ETA:

Delcat wrote:

and thus do not have the same consequences for
their actions. The brain, especially the portions governing impulse
control, are still forming at thirteen.

Mafiosa wrote:

So? So there should be no consequence for any wrongs I purposefully commit?

Mafiosa. I love you, but please do not put words in my mouth.

Cyberwulf wrote:

As to violent movies, games and videos - no, they won't make a normal, well-adjusted kid who has decent parents suddenly turn violent. But they may negatively influence a kid who is neglected, or who already feels isolated.

No, a neglected kid is more likely to seek attention elsewhere, like pouting at a camera while naked, and then watching friend requests pour in.

Quote :

Teens may have lowered impulse control but I can
safely say that there's a good many teenagers who HAVEN'T stabbed
someone, so I'm not sure why that's a valid excuse for her actions.

Look guys, not everything is black and white. Yeah, normal teenagers don't go around stabbing people, but you really have to look at the circumstances.

Say a kid is born a little nutty because of genes. If the kid is raised is a rich/middle/poor but loving house, chances are the nuttiness will never really manifest itself as something dangerous.

Now, take the same nutty kid and raise him in a ghetto/around bullies/or some other shitty situation, chances are the craziness will do turn out to be alarming.

Now, someone's gonna come in and say, "Gee, pandas raped me when I was 6 and I turned out to be ok!" Well, good for you! But every person's pushing point is different, not everyone is born with it, not everyone can survive some shitty (real or perceived) situation.

It's hard to judge from a tiny news report, but grandpa here doesn't seem to be some paragon of civility either. I'm inclined to think the whole family was dysfunctional. It happens.

Yes, I believe in personal choices, but to ignore the role that environment is just foolish. In reality, both play a part.

Nihilist wrote:

No matter what her motives were, there is no justification in murdering people because they were being assholes. If anyone can just use that as an excuse to murder someone, half my hometown would be dead.

I wasn't justifying what she did. What she did was wrong, dead wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to jump up and call her pyschopathic because of what she did. I can understand that she finally snapped however and lost control.

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And most of the time, it isn't. I've been bullied throughout elementary school and it did stop when I decided to fight instead of ignoring the bullies, but being a victim in no way justifies killing someone- sane or not. Was the grandpa out to kill her? Most likely not.

Yes, most of the time bullying is just simple bullying. But what if, she complained countless times to someone else and they wouldn't do shit about it? Again, not justifying anything. The kid is in the wrong but I can understand where she's coming from.

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By your reasoning, if a parent disciplines his/her child, then it counts as abuse and the parents deserve to be shot.

:roflmao: I have not once ever thought that disciplining a child is child abuse or that the parents need to be shot. But that's another can of worms enitrely.

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Oh, and don't take it that I don't understand what you're talking about. I've snapped and beat up people enough times to know. But will you ever snap and shoot someone?

No, I wouldn't, but to be honest I have choked someone and had to be pulled off of them.

Quote :

What you're doing is equating "beating someone up" with "killing or attempting to kill them" and they're not the same thing. In the first instance, it's reasonable to only do enough damage to make them never pick on you again, while the second case robs them of their ability to even exist, let alone pick on you. They're not the same.

You're quite right. Sometimes however, when someone flies into a blind rage being reasonable is the fartherest thing from their mind. Look at a husband/wife coming home to find their spouse in bed with another person. Instead of telling them to both get their shit and get out, they pull out a gun and shoots the shit out of both of them. I know this isn't the same thing as killing someone who has pushed you too far. Believe me I know, but I'm just saying sometimes when people fly off the handle they aren't thinking.

Delcat wrote:

I'm not saying she wasn't responsible for her actions. I'm saying that the amount of responsibility differs between adults and children. I'm also saying that psychology is NOT a black-and-white thing. Like Cyberwulf said, experience is not universal. There's not enough here to say what the hell is going on in the life of this kid. That's a job for a psychologist with full access to her history.

ETA:

Delcat wrote:

and thus do not have the same consequences for
their actions. The brain, especially the portions governing impulse
control, are still forming at thirteen.

Mafiosa wrote:

So? So there should be no consequence for any wrongs I purposefully commit?

Mafiosa. I love you, but please do not put words in my mouth.

BUT I AM CONFUS

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're saying and what I'm trying to spit out. I'm confusing myself now.
Your point is that teen and adults killers are different due to differences in impulse control and that in this case a key difference may be her possible history of being abused, correct? Or am I all backwards and crazy?

Quote :

Now, someone's gonna come in and say, "Gee, pandas raped me when I was 6 and I turned out to be ok!"

In before Harley says that, and no one is surprised.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Kids are mouldable, you fucking rodeo clown -

Alright, I'm a rodeo clown. Are you the bull? Come chase me some more! (I love you, by the way)

T.S. Orr wrote:

You're quite right. Sometimes however, when someone flies into a blind rage sometimes being reasonable is the fartherest thing from their mind. Look at a husband/wife coming home to find their spouse in bed with another person. Instead of telling them to both get their shit and get out, they pull out a gun and shoots the shit out of both of them. I know this isn't the same thing as killing someone who has pushed you too. Believe me I know, but I'm just saying sometimes when people fly off the handle they aren't thinking.

Oh, definitely. It's just that issues like these tend to really, really bother me- especially when some people go in and say "Oh, he was an asshole he deserved it". I don't mean you- just in general.

Mafiosa wrote:

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're saying and what I'm trying to spit out. I'm confusing myself now.
Your point is that teen and adults killers are different due to differences in impulse control and that in this case a key difference may be her possible history of being abused, correct? Or am I all backwards and crazy?

Sorry, I'm getting confused too |D

I noted the word difference because I don't want people thinking there should be no consequences, because that's obviously untrue. But I do think there should have different consequences depending on situation and especially on age. Such factors can make the difference between a mental hospital and jail, for instance. Just trying to keep things clear. Which I obviously wasn't. Sorry. Thank you.

Nihilist wrote:

T.S. Orr wrote:

You're quite right. Sometimes however, when someone flies into a blind rage sometimes being reasonable is the fartherest thing from their mind. Look at a husband/wife coming home to find their spouse in bed with another person. Instead of telling them to both get their shit and get out, they pull out a gun and shoots the shit out of both of them. I know this isn't the same thing as killing someone who has pushed you too. Believe me I know, but I'm just saying sometimes when people fly off the handle they aren't thinking.

Oh, definitely. It's just that issues like these tend to really, really bother me- especially when some people go in and say "Oh, he was an asshole he deserved it". I don't mean you- just in general.

I can understand that. Naw, he didn't deserve to die but he needed a good whack upside the head with a maturity stick. Why the fuck would an old ass man fuck with a thirteen year old child? Where is the satisfaction in that?

Delcat wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're saying and what I'm trying to spit out. I'm confusing myself now.
Your point is that teen and adults killers are different due to differences in impulse control and that in this case a key difference may be her possible history of being abused, correct? Or am I all backwards and crazy?

Sorry, I'm getting confused too |D

I noted the word difference because I don't want people thinking there should be no consequences, because that's obviously untrue. But I do think there should have different consequences depending on situation and especially on age. Such factors can make the difference between a mental hospital and jail, for instance. Just trying to keep things clear. Which I obviously wasn't. Sorry. Thank you.

I'm glad we made up.

However, I stand by my original opinion while understanding your side; I believe that if she's mature enough to intentionally kill someone and willingly admit to it, she's mature enough to be tried as an adult.
If something does come out about previous abuse in the family she might get a good plea bargain though. However, I might be confusing the little law I know with stuff I'm making up in my head.

Nihilist wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

Kids are mouldable, you fucking rodeo clown -

Alright, I'm a rodeo clown. Are you the bull? Come chase me some more! (I love you, by the way)

:roflmao: Nice tension-breaker! I can't stay mad at you, dude.

Quote :

T.S. Orr wrote:

You're quite right. Sometimes however, when someone flies into a blind rage sometimes being reasonable is the fartherest thing from their mind. Look at a husband/wife coming home to find their spouse in bed with another person. Instead of telling them to both get their shit and get out, they pull out a gun and shoots the shit out of both of them. I know this isn't the same thing as killing someone who has pushed you too. Believe me I know, but I'm just saying sometimes when people fly off the handle they aren't thinking.

Oh, definitely. It's just that issues like these tend to really, really bother me- especially when some people go in and say "Oh, he was an asshole he deserved it". I don't mean you- just in general.

I don't think the grandfather deserved to die, either. But it's dangerous to tag children (adults are different, because in most cases they should have the mental and emotional maturity to reign themselves in in a situation like that) who snap and kill their parents/caregivers as evil or unfixable or fucked up, because the apparent motive for the murder seems trivial ("Girl kills grandfather over milk"). Children who kill can, in most cases, be successfully rehabilitated (again, that doesn't mean they get off scot free).

Mafiosa wrote:

I'm glad we made up.

Me too. I'm terrible at wank :glomp:

Mafiosa wrote:

However, I stand by my original opinion while understanding your side; I believe that if she's mature enough to intentionally kill someone and willingly admit to it, she's mature enough to be tried as an adult.
If something does come out about previous abuse in the family she might get a good plea bargain though. However, I might be confusing the little law I know with stuff I'm making up in my head.

It's an understandable viewpoint and it could be true in this case, and if not in this case, then others. I just wanted to make the point that there are a lot of factors to this sort of thing, and maturity isn't the same thing as mental stability.

I JUST WANT TO LOVE AND PSYCHOLOGIZE AT THE SAME TIME

IT'S SO HARD

I had to really think about the story before I weighed in.

She's a child. I know we label thirteen as a teenager, but the thing is, at thirteen as a female, her impulse control is pretty much as low as it will ever be. When you were a child, and someone hurt you, what did you want to do? You wanted to hurt them. Badly. You didn't rationalize the situation. You just wanted them to stop hurting you and go away. You didn't care how.

By thirteen, you were capable of committing the acts you thought of as a child, but by then, you'd developed some empathy. You knew it was wrong, but it didn't stop you from wanting it.

Now put that in a child who, as it sounds, was constantly abused and berated by the man. She hated him. She wanted him to stop. And then she was thirteen, and big enough to stop him. But probably due to the verbal (maybe even physical) abuse, she didn't develop the empathy towards him that would have stopped her from lashing out. He was a monster to her and she wanted him to stop and leave her alone. So when he pushed her yet again, made her feel helpless and worthless and all alone, she, in a child's mind, made him go away and leave her alone.

Of course she's not sorry. She's still thinking like a child. Children think in a narcissistic viewpoint. She's not sorry because she can't empathize with him. She's only thinking from her perspective, and that perspective is that without him, her life is better.

In a few years, yes, she might be sorry. But right now, all she knows is that he's gone and that's good.

That doesn't mean what she did was right. It wasn't. But it doesn't make her a psychopath.

I think it's impossible to judge the situation when we don't know all the details of what had been happening in the house. From all appearances, this was hardly an isolated thing.

I also don't think it's possible to say exactly how people are going to react to being abused or bullied. There was abuse in my extended family, and the long-term affects on those who grew up in that range from denial to hyper-assertiveness to difficulty forming healthy adult relationships. So much depends on the particulars of the situation and the psychology of the abused/bullied.

And, acknowledging that this girl was probably motivated by something isn't the same as saying that she completely lacks culpability. Most people who commit crimes have motivations, some more reasonable than others.

I can see why this girl might not show remorse at the moment, if this guy was a major thorn in her side.

I'm very, very sorry for what this girl has gone through, and even more so by the attitude I've seen from some people in this very thread. For all intents and purposes, she was emotionally (if not physically or otherwise) abused by her grandfather for years and when she finally gets pushed past her snapping point and explodes, she's subjected to a bunch of people saying she's a psychopath and deserves to be tried as an adult.

I expect this poor girl was old enough to know that being abused like that isn't acceptable but for some reason she wasn't being protected by those that were supposed to be doing so (such as her mother).

"People are supposed to be treated with respect care but not you. Being treated with fairness when being disciplined is important but not for you. When kids are being abused they're taken out of the home so they can be protected but this isn't something that'll be done for you."

I imagine the feeling of injustice, anger, pain and despair just got to be too much and the milk incident was just the icing on the cake and she snapped. Had she systematically plotted to actively murder the man, I could understand the motivation for trying her as an adult, but this incident was clearly instigated by years of abuse and it was done in a moment of passion (much like abused women that snap and kill their husbands).

Of course she's not going to feel guilt about killing the man that was horrible to her for years; why should she? He had apparently done nothing but make her miserable for the longest time* and no one intervened*. It's perfectly reasonable for a 13-year-old to feel little remorse over the death of their abuser, whether the death was intentional or not. I still think she didn't intend to kill him, only to hurt him like he had been hurting her.

* These are my assumptions; they may not be true.

Aggie wrote:

For all intents and purposes, she was emotionally (if not physically or otherwise) abused by her grandfather for years
Of course she's not going to feel guilt about killing the man that was horrible to her for years; why should she? He had apparently done nothing but make her miserable for the longest time* and no one intervened*. It's perfectly reasonable for a 13-year-old to feel little remorse over the death of their abuser, whether the death was intentional or not. I still think she didn't intend to kill him, only to hurt him like he had been hurting her.

* These are my assumptions; they may not be true.

So you're wagging your finger at us for having an opinion you don't share, even though your opinion is based completely off of speculation? I can't speak for anyone else who shares my opinion but looking at the facts we have 1. She killed him. and 2. Threatened to do so in the past. She may have been abused but she showed violent tendencies toward the grandfather.

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Labrina T. Brown, who allegedly threatened Robert A. Moon with knives before

Aldridge told investigators Brown responded with a profane outburst, adding "Next time I'm going to bust you."

Aldridge told investigators she previously had seen Brown threaten Moon with knives but never use them.

This isn't a "crime of passion" (or rather, temporary insanity) or premeditated; she just decided to do it when she was pissed. She knew what she was doing. The worrying bit is not that she's unsympathetic to her victim but unafraid of the consequences.

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I'm very, very sorry for what this girl has gone through, and even more so by the attitude I've seen from some people in this very thread.

Don't apologize for me.
FUCK YOU.

Why was she threatening him with knives, is my question. What was scaring her so badly about this man that she felt the need to get a damn knife? That's not normal behavior.

Also I'd like to point out the fact that she appears to at least be honest about her feelings at this time; a premeditative and meticulously planning murderer would be more likely to lie and tell people what she thought they'd wanted to hear in order to get leniency, such as "Oh, I did it in a moment of passion and I'm very, very sorry! I took a man's life and I will forever be remorseful for that!"

That is what people want to hear but she's explicitly stating what she feels at the moment: anger and unrepentence. I think that, more than anything, is more indicative of this having been done in a moment of passion rather than her doing it just because she felt like it.

Clearly she needs to be punished for what she's done (I don't see anyone arguing otherwise), but I don't believe that condemning a 13-year-old girl that's been abused for years to a lifetime in the slammer would be beneficial to anyone right now (at least, not until she's spent some time in a correctional facility to see if this anger abates somewhat).

Oh, don't get me wrong. She did something horrible, and yes, unless something more mitigating about the story comes to light, i.e. she genuinely feared for her life, than she should be punished for her actions.

In a juvenile facility. That place you send non-adults who commit a crime. A prison? Are you kidding me?

Lapin wrote:

He was a monster to her and she wanted him to stop and leave her alone.

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monster

Quote :

monster

Really? In the space of twenty posts this guy has gone from your run of the mill asshole to an (implied) physically abusive predator.

All we know is that he teased her a bit over milk, and he's being demonized beyond the point of ridiculousness. Meanwhile we have a girl who has threatened physical violence numerous times over the last several years, and actually stabbed and killed a man, and she's being given a free pass due to her age and the imagined, untold abuses of her grandfather. What the hell, people?

VB wrote:

Lapin wrote:

He was a monster to her and she wanted him to stop and leave her alone.

Quote :

monster

Quote :

monster

Really? In the space of twenty posts this guy has gone from your run of the mill asshole to an (implied) physically abusive predator.

All we know is that he teased her a bit over milk, and he's being demonized. Meanwhile we have a girl who has threatened physical violence numerous times over the last several years, and actually stabbed and killed a man, and she's being given a free pass due to her age and the imagined, untold abuses of her grandfather. What the hell, people?

VB, what are you doing being sensible?

You're blowing my mind.

Thinking that a fucking 13 year old shouldn't go to the penitentiary isn't giving her a 'free pass'.

Bamshalam wrote:

Thinking that a fucking 13 year old shouldn't go to the penitentiary isn't giving her a 'free pass'.

Saying that it's completely understandable that she stabbed him, and isn't showing any remorse over it, is.