Long live the new king! :D

^ Funny how my health insurance provider does neither of those things.

Reepicheep-chan wrote:

I think it is both of these things.

I completely agree that the sheer size of the US, and the hugely diverse population, cause problems other countries might not have (or not to the same extent). I'm pretty sure though that if you broke it up into fifty separate countries, the aversion to 'socialised' health care would still be at work in most of them. I mean look at who populated the country and why; taking pride in being self-sufficient and independent is part of the very fabric of your society.

Anon wrote:

Unless it's a company scheme being paid for out of their salary, in which case, strangely, it's the employer's money and they have a right to try and claim it back from you.

That seems a bit... counterintuitive? ô.o

Quote :

the principles on which insurance companies operate is the same in the US and Europe. It's only people's perceptions that differ.

Absolutely totally agree.

grmblfjx wrote:

Anon wrote:

Unless it's a company scheme being paid for out of their salary, in which case, strangely, it's the employer's money and they have a right to try and claim it back from you.

That seems a bit... counterintuitive? ô.o

It gets even stranger with life insurances. You can buy insurance in the US that pays you when, for example, one of your employees dies. Which gives your employer the perfect reason to care less about your safety. Even stranger, you can trade in options with life ensurance companies, that is, trading on bets that someone will die. It's literally a trade in motives to kill, pretty disturbing.

grmblfjx wrote:

Anon wrote:

Unless it's a company scheme being paid for out of their salary, in which case, strangely, it's the employer's money and they have a right to try and claim it back from you.

That seems a bit... counterintuitive? ô.o

Imagine this. You are involved in an accident. You require medical care and receive treatment under the company 'health insurance' scheme. You then successfully sue the people responsible for your accident. You wouldn't think that the comany could then reclaim it's costs from the damages you were awarded, would you? Those costs were paid for out of employee contributions to the scheme. However, many companies would actually do this, and that is pretty much the argument that people use to defend it.

Keep misreading as Long Live The New Flesh.

Goddamn videodrome.

grmblfjx wrote:

I completely agree that the sheer size of the US, and the hugely diverse population, cause problems other countries might not have (or not to the same extent). I'm pretty sure though that if you broke it up into fifty separate countries, the aversion to 'socialised' health care would still be at work in most of them.

I actually disagree with this; I think you'd see a of state-by-state variation were this the case. God knows we can't agree on a leader.

Also health care wasn't the only claim I was making; it's very hard to standardize an educational system for as many people as are in question.

grmblfjx wrote:

I mean look at who populated the country and why; taking pride in being self-sufficient and independent is part of the very fabric of your society.

Absolutely totally agree :p

TheHedonist wrote:

grmblfjx wrote:

I completely agree that the sheer size of the US, and the hugely diverse population, cause problems other countries might not have (or not to the same extent). I'm pretty sure though that if you broke it up into fifty separate countries, the aversion to 'socialised' health care would still be at work in most of them.

I actually disagree with this; I think you'd see a of state-by-state variation were this the case. God knows we can't agree on a leader.

Also health care wasn't the only claim I was making; it's very hard to standardize an educational system for as many people as are in question.

Is it? Why? You do realize there are several kinds of schools in the Netherlands too, right? There's Catholic schools and public schools and fancy schools and schools with hippy-esque manifestos and all of them have to adhere to the same standards. Why is setting a standard more difficult for all y'all? Do your individuals somehow become more individual because there's more of them?

Because for every one person that would try to set standards, there will be two people who think the standards are worse than Satan, and the rest of the people just want to watch TV.

This is American progress in a nutshell.

Jay/Cris wrote:

Is it? Why? You do realize there are several kinds of schools in the Netherlands too, right? There's Catholic schools and public schools and fancy schools and schools with hippy-esque manifestos and all of them have to adhere to the same standards. Why is setting a standard more difficult for all y'all? Do your individuals somehow become more individual because there's more of them?

No, but it becomes a hell of a lot harder to get them to shut up and agree. On anything.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Because for every one person that would try to set standards, there will be two people who think the standards are worse than Satan, and the rest of the people just want to watch TV.

This is American progress in a nutshell.

And... you think people in other countries don't disagree? The same thing happens everywhere -- this very thread is about how for one people who liked the song, two people hated it and three didn't care.

It is not the disagreeing that is the problem, guys. It is the additional levels of administration required to manage the huge lumbering dinosaur that is the US population.

If we were just talking about one country that was twice the size of another it would be ndb, be we are comparing a country that has less than a million people with a country that has over 300 million people. The reason we have this redic system of state government v. federal government is because most of our (50) states are the size of countries. This is a country that is nearly the size of the entire continent of Europe. When you conceptualize the US government you have to picture a country that works more like a union of 50 separate countries that share a president, a constitution, a military, and not a great deal else.

This does not excuse how back-fucking-asswards the US is about things or mean that I am not straight-up embarrassed by its shit most of the time, but it is an absolute fact that smaller countries are easier to socialize than hulking behemoths like the US.

Look, I'm not an expert on foreign countries political base or cultural differences in mindset towards politics, all I can talk about is the United States. And over here it seems the thing is... let me use the example of gay marriage, yes?

Ok, most Americans actually don't give a shit if gays want to be married. But that's the problem, they primarily don't give a shit. The one person? That person does give a shit and wants gays to be married. Those two people? They give a really loud, wet, Taco Bell shit. And they're the ones who think that if two people of the same gender can get married in a church like they did the entire country will unravel. Empty vessels making the loudest sounds and all that.

This is compounded by, as Reep put it, the lumbering, clumsy dinosaur that is US government. I'm sure that if the United States of America was abolished and dissolved into 50 separate entities you'd have a lot of states that functioned very similar to Sweden, the Netherlands, etc, and you'd also have some states that looked and operated more like Sparta. I'm also sure that if all of Europe was combined into The United States of Europe, you'd all suffer from similar problems.

Reepicheep-chan wrote:

we are comparing a country that has less than a million people with a country that has over 300 million people.

We are?

The Netherlands have not-quite 17 million people, or around a fifth of the population that Gemany has. Germany has not-quite 82 million people, or around a fifth of the population of the US. If size alone were to account for, say, why health care does or doesn't work, you would expect to see much more of a difference between the Netherlands and Germany than is actually the case.

Quote :

it is an absolute fact that smaller countries are easier to socialize than hulking behemoths like the US.

Which, to my mind, is more due to the fact that "behemoth" countries are bound to be less homogenous, demographically speaking. Which leads back to mindsets, not sheer numbers.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

if all of Europe was combined into The United States of Europe, you'd all suffer from similar problems.

Meet the European Union. At 503 million people, and 333 milllion people sharing a joint currency, I feel we're not actually behind in size.

grmblfjx wrote:

Meet the European Union. At 503 million people, and 333 milllion people sharing a joint currency, I feel we're not actually behind in size.

Because... y'know, a singular currency means you have to put up with the same laws and regulations for all governments and political groups in every country which are the sa- oh wait.

Quote :

The Netherlands have not-quite 17 million people, or around a fifth of the population that Gemany has. Germany has not-quite 82 million people, or around a fifth of the population of the US. If size alone were to account for, say, why health care does or doesn't work, you would expect to see much more of a difference between the Netherlands and Germany than is actually the case.

And even Germany still has less than a third of the population of the United States. Not to mention Germany, land-wise, isn't even as big as Texas alone.

Reidmar wrote:

grmblfjx wrote:

Meet the European Union. At 503 million people, and 333 milllion people sharing a joint currency, I feel we're not actually behind in size.

Because... y'know, a singular currency means you have to put up with the same laws and regulations for all governments and political groups in every country which are the sa- oh wait.

...well, yeah, actually, to a certain extent.

Reidmar wrote:

grmblfjx wrote:

Meet the European Union. At 503 million people, and 333 milllion people sharing a joint currency, I feel we're not actually behind in size.

Because... y'know, a singular currency means you have to put up with the same laws and regulations for all governments and political groups in every country which are the sa- oh wait.

Yes, because the European Union has absolutely no shared legislature, and the legislature of the United States of America is the same in all the states!

Oh, wait.

Jay/Cris wrote:

Reidmar wrote:

grmblfjx wrote:

Meet the European Union. At 503 million people, and 333 milllion people sharing a joint currency, I feel we're not actually behind in size.

Because... y'know, a singular currency means you have to put up with the same laws and regulations for all governments and political groups in every country which are the sa- oh wait.

Yes, because the European Union has absolutely no shared legislature, and the legislature of the United States of America is the same in all the states!

Oh, wait.

srsly i've got irishstatutebook.ie open in the next tab with search results for "european communities" there's a fucking laundry list of acts and statutory implements based on eu regs everything from drinking water regulations to pet passports

Reidmar wrote:

Because... y'know, a singular currency means you have to put up with the same laws and regulations for all governments and political groups in every country which are the sa- oh wait.

Because... y'know, in the US you have all the same laws and regulations in every single state and county.

The EU has a parliament, a seat of government, and they pass guidelines that the individual countries then have to write into law within a certain amount of time. There is such a thing as a European government. Look it up before you go getting all smartass about it.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

The Netherlands have not-quite 17 million people, or around a fifth of the population that Gemany has. Germany has not-quite 82 million people, or around a fifth of the population of the US. If size alone were to account for, say, why health care does or doesn't work, you would expect to see much more of a difference between the Netherlands and Germany than is actually the case.

And even Germany still has less than a third of the population of the United States. Not to mention Germany, land-wise, isn't even as big as Texas alone.

See above. I'm not sure what your point is. Land mass is hardly relevant here, and population-wise Germany is to the US as the Netherlands are to Germany (pretty much exactly); my point is that if size is that big of an issue then that issue should be visible when comparing Germany to the Netherlands, since it's a similar ratio.

Quote :

The EU has a parliament, a seat of government, and they pass guidelines that the individual countries then have to write into law within a certain amount of time. There is such a thing as a European government. Look it up before you go getting all smartass about it.

But do they have to do things like institute a health care plan that every country under the European Union can agree on? Have they made every country under them legalize gay marriage? What is the extent of their regulations on education? I'm an ignorant American, I'm actually not sure.

But regardless, the European Union is more or less a voluntary thing, yes? It doesn't cover ever country in Europe and each country has the choice to A) meet the standards set to join the European Union, and B) join the European Union having met the standards and requirements? While every individual State is a part of the United States whether they like it or not (see: every Southern State).

Quote :

See above. I'm not sure what your point is. Land mass is hardly relevant here, and population-wise Germany is to the US as the Netherlands are to Germany (pretty much exactly); my point is that if size is that big of an issue then that issue should be visible when comparing Germany to the Netherlands, since it's a similar ratio.

My point is that I would argue that due to America's sheer size, it is more geographically diverse than both Germany and the Netherlands. This partially leads to the American government having to cater to a more culturally diverse population than either country. This is only exacerbated by other factors, such as the legacy of colonialism, a fairly recent civil war, a popular destination for immigration from poor economic conditions, the Atlantic slave trade, etc etc. Culturally, I would argue that African Americans are different from middle class Caucasians are different from peckerwoods are different from Latino Americans and they have different values and ways of seeing the world. And then you go state by state....

It's not just that the American South and the American North are just as, if not more, different as a whole from each other as North Germany is from South Germany. It's that Pennsylvania is different from New Jersey and Maryland. Primarily that we're angrier and probably ruder.

Anyway, diversity and size is far from the only problem, but I think it's there. We've also touched upon distinctly American culture tropes like the American Dream, Damn Right Rebel Proud, and the Protestant Work Ethic. But at the same time, you have your number of middle class white liberal soccer parents who scoff at these notions as being for the simple proles who are missing half their teeth and actually have calluses on their palms. But those simple proles also vote with those callused hands and their numbers are significant.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Anyway, diversity and size is far from the only problem, but I think it's there.

Yeah, Doobie covered everything I would have said and more. I am not saying size is the only problem, but it is a problem.

I mean, the list of "reasons why we are stone-age motherfuckers out here" starts at "what do you expect from a country founded on genocide and built by slavery?" and goes on from there, there is plenty of room for everyone's pet theories.

I wish there was universal health care here.

Can we also touch on how fucking expensive it is to get healthcare? Without insurance the cost for anything is at least a few thousand dollars.

And then if you can't afford it....! Of course there are programs to help but what if they determined you made too much money for some of the cost to be waived?

You're still fucked, still putting off doctor trips, necessary procedures... Not out of pride but inability to afford it. For example: I fought a hobo a year ago after I was an idiot and let them use my phone. I was doubly an idiot for chasing him down and fighting him for it. I was unharmed, mind you, but as I bent down to grab my phone... I sprained the shit out of it. I was unable to call in, unable to put in for time off as I did not have a doctors note, unable to go to the doctor (I knew it was gonna be expensive) and the whole headache of FMLA and your job sometimes not letting you return to work. So instead, a day after, I was busser during a huge boxing event at the casino I worked at and mind you, 75-100lb trays, barely could walk, it was either that or homelessness and I picked that. At the time my girlfriend didnt have a job and I didnt want to place fucktons of pressure on her.

There isn't such a thing as pride. There are immediate needs. A lot of regular, calluses people's such as myself have to factor in lost pay. And at the time, getting paid versus healing properly and possibly getting evicted seems less desirable. A lot less.

But keep in mind, I'm not typical white America. It's not about pride- it's that I'm basically, in this point in time, fucked sideways with a longboard.

If I totally didnt have to worry about eviction and job loss and paying tons of money for educated idiots to fix my broken parts then I'd totally go to the doctor, I like it when they touch me sometimes.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

It's not just that the American South and the American North are just as, if not more, different as a whole from each other as North Germany is from South Germany. It's that Pennsylvania is different from New Jersey and Maryland. Primarily that we're angrier and probably ruder.

Ruder than Maryland, anyway.

Possibly angrier than Jersey but that one's too close to call.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

But do they have to do things like institute a health care plan that every country under the European Union can agree on? Have they made every country under them legalize gay marriage?

No, and no. Y'know, just like in the US.

Quote :

diversity and size is far from the only problem, but I think it's there.

I never said it wasn't. I said I think the reason that universal health care specifically has a hard time being accepted not because of the sheer number of people, but because of the vastly diverse and often uncompromisingly independent mindsets over there.

Quote :

I never said it wasn't. I said I think the reason that universal health care specifically has a hard time being accepted not because of the sheer number of people, but because of the vastly diverse and often uncompromisingly independent mindsets over there.

Well then we're all just talking past each other again. My work here is done.