Star Dreck

Sakurelf wrote:

I shall use this troll as an excuse to post this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Which I heartily enjoyed reading.

Thanks for the link. The context surrounding Uhura's "single" status in TOS and how it was influenced by, if not directly due to, racism was one I hadn't considered.

Sakurelf wrote:

People need to understand that Uhura is not her race and is not her gender.

I find it really strange that you say that when the author of the post you linked talks a lot about what it means to a black woman to see a black woman on television, film, or in any form of media. It's also a ridiculous thing to say. She's a black woman. I'm a white woman. Neither of us can "not be" our race or gender.

Quote :

She is a character, with flaws, and whether single or attached to someone's arm, her importance is what she does, not who she is.

The problem isn't just with Uhura and what the scriptwriters gave her to do. There's a wider context here, which is that the protagonists of sci-fi movies are overwhelmingly white, male, straight, cis-gendered, ablebodied, thin/muscular. The supporting characters also tend to be white, male, straight, cis-gendered and ablebodied. Female characters are few and far between, and tend to be there as the (eventual) love interest, sometimes in the context of a reward/trophy for the hero after he "proves himself" (see Mikhela in the first Transformers movie, as an example). POCs tend to fall into either token roles or are simply stereotypes. The most egregious example of this from the Trek universe is in the latter seasons of Enterprise, when it seems like Hoshi and Mayweather are only there because there's a rule that you have to have at least one POC in the bridge crew.

Until the movie industry ditches the idea that the "everyman" is white, male, straight, cisgendered, ablebodied, thin/muscular, nominally Christian etc., and starts treating the rest of us like we're full human beings who are more than just feisty eye-candy, street-talking punks, inherently comic/ugly because of our size, ultimate karate masters, defined purely by our sexualities with no personalities of our own - in short, until Hollywood stops being lazy and falling back on tired old tropes, race and gender and everything else is going to matter.

Quote :

cisgendered

cisgendered


The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

Quote :

in short, until Hollywood stops being lazy and falling back on tired old tropes, race and gender and everything else is going to matter.

I'm sure Hollywood will do that when the average moviegoer develops an attention span.

Penguin wrote:

Quote :

cisgendered

cisgendered


The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

Cisgender (pronounced /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] Cisgender is a "newer term" that means "someone who is comfortable in the gender they were assigned at birth."[2] "Cisgender" is used to contrast "transgender" on the gender spectrum.[citation needed] There is no specific term for cisgendered people who feel they would still be equally comfortable if their physical gender was changed.

Oh. Well, in that case... What's wrong with "normal"? :lolinsane:

Penguin wrote:

Oh. Well, in that case... What's wrong with "normal"? :lolinsane:

You know how there's a thread in News right now about a transgendered woman whose employer asked to see a picture of her genitalia to make sure she was "really" a woman before letting her return to work?

That's why your "joke" isn't funny.

Did you know that bad things happen to all kinds of people, and thus any joke that even tangentially references humanity is not funny?

Penguin, you moronic fucknut, go break your fingers.

Penguin didn't say anything wrong, he was being snarky. CW, yes, you have a point. But once again, you're taking it too far.

Lapin wrote:

Penguin didn't say anything wrong, he was being snarky. CW, yes, you have a point. But once again, you're taking it too far.

I take it as he's bored and is in a prime mood for transwank.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Penguin wrote:

Did you know that bad things happen to all kinds of people, and thus any joke that even tangentially references humanity is not funny?

Yes, a cisgendered person would absolutely be asked to provide proof that they're really the gender they present as.

Just like straight people run the risk of being intimidated, assaulted, or possibly even killed when they disclose that they're attracted to the opposite gender.

Now shut your fucking mouth.

Lapin wrote:

Penguin didn't say anything wrong

Yes, he did. He othered transpeople by asking what's wrong with using "normal" for cispeople. That he added an obnoxious smilie doesn't make it any better, and that he reacted with OH GOD WE CAN'T MAKE ANY JOKES AT ALL NOW I SUPPOSE makes it worse.

Quote :

CW, yes, you have a point. But once again, you're taking it too far.

Fuck you. You're not going far enough. You're sitting there excusing and enabling this shit.

You do realise we have transpeople on this board, right? You think "what's wrong with normal" is funny to them? You think they're not under pressure every fucking day NOT to "take it too far" and suck that shit up? You realise it's exactly that kind of bullshit that makes transpeople so reluctant to disclose?

I would like to hear what our Trans residents have to say about this.

Okay, you know what? Normally, I agree with you. I think you're awesome and hilarious and I love watching you make other people fall over themselves and look stupid. Everybody knows this.

And maybe you're right and I am excusing behavior I shouldn't excuse, but sometimes you really take the insulting people thing too far. It was a joke, a stupid one, but a joke that meant nothing nonetheless. You don't need to jump all over everyone for every little thing.

Lapin wrote:

I am excusing behavior I shouldn't excuse,

You are excusing behaviour you shouldn't excuse.

Quote :

It was a joke, a stupid one, but a joke that meant nothing nonetheless.

It did not "mean nothing". I explained to you what it meant.

And you're making something out of nothing. I don't want to fight with you CW, I like you too much.

Lapin wrote:

And you're making something out of nothing.

I'm disgusted that you think it's "nothing". What if he'd said "what's wrong with normal" about the word "heterosexual"? Or "white"?

Cyberwulf wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Did you know that bad things happen to all kinds of people, and thus any joke that even tangentially references humanity is not funny?

Yes, a cisgendered person would absolutely be asked to provide proof that they're really the gender they present as.

Which totes has something to do with this thread. Totes.

Quote :

Just like straight people run the risk of being intimidated, assaulted, or possibly even killed when they disclose that they're attracted to the opposite gender.

See above.

The excellent part about this is that there are perfectly valid reactions to the "wrongness" of joking about psychological classifications based on things beyond the common perception, but instead of any of them you went with NO YOU'RE DUMB BAD STUFF HAPPENS TO TRANSPEOPLE NOW STFU, which is completely beside the point.

Quote :

Now shut your fucking mouth.

:law: A mouthbreather like you might find this hard to understand, but I don't use my keyboard with my mouth.

Quote :

Fuck you. You're not going far enough. You're sitting there excusing and enabling this shit.

No, fuck you. Nobody ever has their mind changed by the Drama Police. You know how much good you're doing for the trans community, or any other minority you've ineptly attempted to aid by being a fountain of wank? Not one bit. You do plenty to enable this shit by simply convincing everyone who isn't already on your side that you're a humorless, raving loony, and by extension, so is everyone on your "side."

I mean, Christ. You're like a poster child for every right-winger's campfire story about liberal fascists. How self-unaware can you be?

Fuck all this narrowminded "just a joke" shit. Seriously. I can't really add anything Cyberwulf hasn't already said and explained any better. What the fuck is wrong with you people?


This post lacks tact, but you all shocked me.

Double post.

Penguin wrote:

The excellent part about this is that there are perfectly valid reactions to the "wrongness" of joking about psychological classifications based on things beyond the common perception,

I gave you a concrete example of what happens when you treat cisgendered people as "normal" and transpeople as "not normal", and you went WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I SUPPOSE WE CAN'T MAKE ANY JOKES AT ALL NOW DIARRHEA DIARRHEA I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE POINTING OUT THAT I LOOK LIKE A BIGOT.

Edit: Did you know that there are valid reactions to being called out on your bigotry? Like, silence? Like, thinking about it?

Quote :

:law: A mouthbreather like you might find this hard to understand, but I don't use my keyboard with my mouth.

Then take Verandering's suggestion of breaking your fucking fingers.

Quote :

No, fuck you. Nobody ever has their mind changed by the Drama Police. You know how much good you're doing for the trans community, or any other minority you've ineptly attempted to aid by being a fountain of wank? Not one bit. You do plenty to enable this shit by simply convincing everyone who isn't already on your side that you're a humorless, raving loony, and by extension, so is everyone on your "side."

I mean, Christ. You're like a poster child for every right-winger's campfire story about liberal fascists. How self-unaware can you be?

Oh, Jesus, yeah. It's not like I calmly pointed out how you were wrong and then you reacted like a testerical dumbass, talking about how OH NO WE CAN'T JOKE ABOUT ANYTHING NOW. I should coddle bigoted shitspewers and not offend them, because it's surely my behaviour that's causing you to fill your underpants in rage, not your own discomfort at being called out in a "joke" you know is bigoted and wrong.

And as always, anyone who dares to be angry at bigoted bullshit and reacts with anger at bigoted bullshit is the one in the wrong. I should've sat here quietly and not said ANYTHING, judging by how you reacted when I calmly pointed out why what you said was shitty, and not ruined your hilarious joke. It's my fault there's still transphobia, absolutely. Not yours.

Penguin wrote:

No, fuck you. Nobody ever has their mind changed by the Drama Police. You know how much good you're doing for the trans community, or any other minority you've ineptly attempted to aid by being a fountain of wank? Not one bit. You do plenty to enable this shit by simply convincing everyone who isn't already on your side that you're a humorless, raving loony, and by extension, so is everyone on your "side."

And you're not the glowing bastion of sanity yourself with your jokes about transpeople. I'm not on anyone's side, by the way. I stand alone. Times like this remind me that when I came out as trans on this board, a lot of people were pretty cruel about it. I'm compromising my own reputation on the board every time I say something regarding this issue, because people have a tendency to be afraid of what they have never met. That I'm somehow less of a human for working up the courage to talk about something that pains me on a regular basis. That I'll never be taken seriously- I'll be FtM- but never truly male. Every time I make that admission in an issue like this, I get dogpiled.

And maybe this time... is one of those times.

Fuck off, Penguin, and your sorry attempt at lulz.

Nihilist wrote:

And you're not the glowing bastion of sanity yourself

Wait, I'm the Bastion of Sanity. *points to title*

I never meant for anyone to feel insulted. I overreacted at CW and I shouldn't have.

Fortunately, I get to be taken out of this conversation and given time to go back to rational thought, because I have to go to work.

Yeah, isn't it handy to be able to get away from problems facing you for just being who you are so easily?

Stuff your teacup bunny up your bum and call yourself a french maid.

Lapin wrote:

I never meant for anyone to feel insulted. I overreacted at CW and I shouldn't have.

Overreacted? Just because you see her name and a post doesn't mean that it's going to be nonsense. Her posts are actually closer to what it's really like. She's not pushing some kind of agenda just because it's Cyberwulf. She has a mind of her own, just like me, you... everyone I would hope.

Quote :

Fortunately, I get to be taken out of this conversation and given time to go back to rational thought, because I have to go to work.

Yeah, you were pretty irrational up there. Remember to think for yourself next time instead of defending the person who it's cool to defend.

Quote :

I find it really strange that you say that when the author of the post you linked talks a lot about what it means to a black woman to see a black woman on television, film, or in any form of media. It's also a ridiculous thing to say. She's a black woman. I'm a white woman. Neither of us can "not be" our race or gender.

I never said I enjoyed reading it because I agreed with her.

She does make some valid points, about how women of colour are not in the same place on issues about feminism, but as a fanfic reader and writer, I have such a hard time associating Uhura to her race or gender, I just don't bother. Yes, Uhura is a black woman. It's not like this needs to be hammered home.