Star Dreck

Lapin, when you get back, and Penguin, assuming you've stopped acting like an overly defensive moron, the point is that some of the "bad things [that] happen to transpeople" happen because they're trans, and only happen to transpeople. They happen because of this overriding notion that we all started out with, and that a lot of us still have to some extent, that transness isn't normal. Making jokes like the one Penguin made reinforces that notion, and castigating people who point out that the joke isn't funny, and here's why, reinforces it further. If I'm "overreacting", that means Penguin did nothing wrong and he doesn't have to examine his own prejudices. This happens all the time to feminists/womanists, to POCs, to LGBTQI people, to disabled people, and to their allies whenever they challenge prejudiced or bigoted "humour".

Cyberwulf wrote:

There's a wider context here, which is that the protagonists of sci-fi movies are overwhelmingly white, male, straight, cis-gendered, ablebodied, thin/muscular. The supporting characters also tend to be white, male, straight, cis-gendered and ablebodied.

There is a reason for this. Ignoring for the moment the fact that most of the writers themselves are all these things (granted, you have to turn your head and squint on the "ablebodied, thin/muscular" parts,) it's probably got something to do with the prevalence of military (or at least military-flavored) settings and themes in sci-fi. Fictional militaries tend to be modeled off real ones, which don't represent the general population, let alone support a Five Token Band.

Verandering wrote:

Fuck all this narrowminded "just a joke" shit. Seriously. I can't really add anything Cyberwulf hasn't already said and explained any better. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

QFT.

Cyberwulf wrote:

If I'm "overreacting", that means Penguin did nothing wrong and he doesn't have to examine his own prejudices. This happens all the time to feminists/womanists, to POCs, to LGBTQI people, to disabled people, and to their allies whenever they challenge prejudiced or bigoted "humour".

But let's consider the reverse. If you are overreacting, why is that? Since it appears to be pop psychoanalysis tiemz nao, I might as well get in on the act.

*Puts cigar in mouth, does line of blow*

You, Cyberwulf, are a sham. Your supposed universal tolerance is in fact anything but, being carefully distributed among "approved" groups to create the largest possible case for your own moral superiority. This is obvious from your callous dismissal of any group not on your designated victims' list- "men have no reproductive rights-" no matter how valid or concrete their complaints may be. You embrace transparent double standards in order to fill the gap (womens' capacity for childbirth makes them sole holders of reproductive rights, yet a reference to less upper body strength is a male chauvinist perpetuation of "the myth of female weakness") and when these fail, you deflect onto some tangent to avoid the issue (WHAT ABOUT RAEP?)

If you do care about minorities, it's in the most condescending, patronizing way possilbe. You see yourself as their (dare I say it) white knight, riding to the rescue. The irony is, of course, that by taking this role you're denying them their own agency as surely as any racist. You have taken up the white man's burden for the new millennium, appointing yourself as some arbiter of conduct based on your own (to you) fashionable views as opposed to any concrete knowledge or qualifications. You're a sham, building a monument to your own virtue over the truly downtrodden.

Short version: get off your high horse, you preening, self-righteous, patronizing snob.

*Blows smoke ring, wipes away nosebleed.*

Man, that felt good.

See, this is why Gaijinguy is pretty much my favorite poster. Well played, sir.

Narwhal wrote:

See, this is why Gaijinguy is pretty much my favorite poster. Well played, sir.

Really. About fucking time.

I went to work, went and saw District 9, came home and slept. I spent an entire shift thinking about this, which bothers me. It wouldn't have bothered me if I'd really been okay with what I said.

But it did bother me. It bothered me because I was completely wrong and probably offended a few people I like. So now I'm here to apologize for saying something so completely stupid that its ridiculous. I'm sorry. CW was right. As usual. (And that bothers me too, cause how the fuck are you always right?)

gaijinguy wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

If I'm "overreacting", that means Penguin did nothing wrong and he doesn't have to examine his own prejudices. This happens all the time to feminists/womanists, to POCs, to LGBTQI people, to disabled people, and to their allies whenever they challenge prejudiced or bigoted "humour".

Beautiful words

Well played, sir.

FWIW: As a minority (sort of, I don't identify as it except to the gov.) and a woman, I don't like the fact that Cyberwulf has deemed herself as the only person with the moral superiority to fight everyone's battles for them. Sometimes I agree with her. Sometimes she has a good point. Most of the time she spews equally intolerant bullshit at the drop of a hat or a purposefully obnoxious joke made to poke fun at what was being implied in the first place. Are we really so sensitive we can't laugh at ourselves everyone in a while? However, I'll cover my ass with that last remark by saying I am not trans, so I can't really speak for them over how offensive it was. It struck me as harmless because it was intended to poke fun at the mentality behind what is "normal" and what isn't.

Plus, everyone here is an asshole, trying to hide it with needless moral indignation is futile.

Some things and comments are worth fighting about, this was not one of those times.

tl;dr: It's just a forum, relax.

Hi. I'm an internet buddy of Penguin, and an rl buddy of Alhazred, as well as one of his main beta readers and sometime co-authors. Those two talk to me about this place all the time, but so far I've tried to guard my sanity. It was pretty much inevitable though, because there's always some interesting new thing they're digging up that occasionally matters to whatever me and Al are working on, or just becomes a joke between the three of us, so I thought I'd bite the bullet.

To give you a little background, I'm bi and poly, and rather... "interesting" in many other ways which you may or may not find out about depending on how active I wind up actually being in this community. I'm familiar with the pain and fear associated with being "othered," and I know what an uphill battle it can be for a different person to just live peacefully and mind their business. My first and to date only serious girlfriend was also a pre-operative transsexual, so I am familiar with the mechanics of gender and the difficulties that being something other than what's in your pants can cause. The world is pretty damn harsh.

Yesterday, when Penguin first started talking to me about this, I spent some time explaining to him the validity and purpose of the term "cisgendered," and how it relates to this topic. It seemed kind of alien to him at first, but it's really more a matter of understanding language than anything, and he's a bright and open-minded dude, so he seems to pretty much get the deal. I feel good about having educated somebody on this topic which is very close to my heart, due to the fact that people I love dearly have been hurt by it due to the ignorance and hostility of others.

In closing, Cyberwulf is still a humorless, raving loony anyway.

gaijinguy wrote:

If you do care about minorities, it's in the most condescending, patronizing way possilbe. You see yourself as their (dare I say it) white knight, riding to the rescue. The irony is, of course, that by taking this role you're denying them their own agency as surely as any racist. You have taken up the white man's burden for the new millennium, appointing yourself as some arbiter of conduct based on your own (to you) fashionable views as opposed to any concrete knowledge or qualifications. You're a sham, building a monument to your own virtue over the truly downtrodden.

Gaijinguy, this is why I really, really like you.

I've said I'm sorry and have thus resolved any issue I had in this thread.




...So, uh, if I've become a Kirk/Spock shipper, have I officially fallen into geekdom?

No, you still have to make horrible photoshops of Kirk and Spock at gay pride day in Disney World.

gaijinguy wrote:

You embrace transparent double standards in order to fill the gap (womens' capacity for childbirth makes them sole holders of reproductive rights, yet a reference to less upper body strength is a male chauvinist perpetuation of "the myth of female weakness")

I've never denied that men have more upper body strength than women. You fail.

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If you do care about minorities, it's in the most condescending, patronizing way possilbe. You see yourself as their (dare I say it) white knight, riding to the rescue.

I love how you can see into my brain.

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The irony is, of course, that by taking this role you're denying them their own agency as surely as any racist. You have taken up the white man's burden for the new millennium, appointing yourself as some arbiter of conduct based on your own (to you) fashionable views as opposed to any concrete knowledge or qualifications.

Yes. I should be like you, and not say anything when the powerful majority group belittle everyone else. I should contribute to it by not calling other white, cis, straight people on their bullshit. After all, pointing out when someone's being racist is just the same as actually being racist myself.

HINT: Me calling someone on their sexism/racism/homophobia/transphobia doesn't stop anyone else doing the same. Blustering about how "it's only a joke", going on about how doing so is just as bad as actually being racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic and perhaps even more so, does make other people feel like it's not worth it.

The irony is that you've revealed more about yourself than me. You think I'm doing this to make myself look like a great person, because you'd never do anything like this unless it benefited you in some way.

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Short version:

You're as bigoted as you ever were.

Mafiosa wrote:

As a minority (sort of, I don't identify as it except to the gov.) and a woman, I don't like the fact that Cyberwulf has deemed herself as the only person with the moral superiority to fight everyone's battles for them.

I haven't deemed myself anything. I call people on their bigotry. Verandering did the same and isn't catching shit for it.

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Most of the time she spews equally intolerant bullshit at the drop of a hat

My first reply was civilised and fairly gentle. Penguin then threw an "OH WE CAN'T MAKE JOKES AT ALL NOW" fit.

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Some things and comments are worth fighting about, this was not one of those times.

See, now you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of what's worth fighting about and what isn't.

You think Penguin... "threw a fit?" That's... adorable, really.

Sarcastic dismissal, while certainly not a friendly reaction, is not frothy-mouthed rage. That's what you're doing.

I have alot more fun and alot less trouble in my life because I have the good humor to be the kind of fag who calls people "fag" instead of telling them not to all the time.

Cyberwulf, shut the fuck up. As a multi-racial transaqueerbisexual or whatever the hell I am, I do not need you to act as my mouth piece. If I was offended by what Penguin said, I would have said iso.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

As a minority (sort of, I don't identify as it except to the gov.) and a woman, I don't like the fact that Cyberwulf has deemed herself as the only person with the moral superiority to fight everyone's battles for them.

I haven't deemed myself anything. I call people on their bigotry. Verandering did the same and isn't catching shit for it.

I don't understand why you feel you need to do that. It changes no one's mind or opinions (especially over the internet) and it makes you out to be a screeching harpy. Everyone is prejudiced, as unfortunate as it is, but we don't need you to go over our posts with a fine toothed comb and point out what terrible people we are on a near daily basis. I'm sick of having to censor myself around you for fear that my use of the word "cocksucker" with send you into one of your ridiculous tizzies. Maybe you should work on improving yourself before you start up with the rest of the world.

Plus, Verandering isn't usually this needlessly aggressive. You're always like this.

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Some things and comments are worth fighting about, this was not one of those times.

See, now you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of what's worth fighting about and what isn't.

Sure, okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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See, now you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of what's worth fighting about and what isn't.

Cyberwulf, I understand that you care about this issue dearly, but let someone who actually experiences it talk about what it's like. While I appreciate you taking this issue and standing up, I take offense when you, the one who doesn't experience what it's like, speaks for me. Sure, it is true on some level, but begging the question further just reinforces negative ideas about people like me. That for some reason, the "oppressed" need your voice and can't speak up for themselves. I'm more than capable of doing that. I've done it.

The best way to completely eliminate oppression of any kind is to let the "oppressed" speak for themselves and fight, instead of turning them into pawns in a battle controlled by people who think they know what's best for them. That's not helping, it's deepening the issue and giving many a good reason to think that these groups are less than human because they apparently can't speak for themselves and you feel that you have to "take up the white man's burden", so to speak.

EDIT: and shit, I especially don't want to be a pawn in someone's trolling attempt.

007bistromath wrote:

Yesterday, when Penguin first started talking to me about this, I spent some time explaining to him the validity and purpose of the term "cisgendered," and how it relates to this topic. It seemed kind of alien to him at first, but it's really more a matter of understanding language than anything, and he's a bright and open-minded dude, so he seems to pretty much get the deal. I feel good about having educated somebody on this topic which is very close to my heart, due to the fact that people I love dearly have been hurt by it due to the ignorance and hostility of others.

Hey there.
I'm glad you could have a talk with him about it and that he understood your explanation. I'm afraid my RAEG reactions were, well, RAEG reactions, and I should have just gotten up and done something else. I can't claim to be transgendered, just that I had to learn people were cisgendered (am I somewhere in between or is this just a two sided coin? whatever), and it sort of struck a nerve in me as well. Also, Nihilist is a cool guy and I already know at least some of the shit he has to go through.

ANYWAY. This be my big ol' apology and welcome post. So welcome to the forums and thanks for explaining and Penguin, I don't really want you to break your fingers... XD;

By this stage I'm just waiting for Wulf to suddenly burst into flames what with all the seriousness *Sips his pint*

*wanders in and looks around*

Um...yeah.

*wanders out*

But-but-but... we were talking about Star Trek! Where's the 'Federation is a commie state' wank already??

Ceres wrote:

But-but-but... we were talking about Star Trek! Where's the 'Federation is a commie state' wank already??

Pfft...that's old hat.

Blasphemy! It's why the internet was created! (Besides porn...)

Ceres wrote:

It's why the internet was created!

Adama > Picard > Sisko = Kirk > Archer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Janeway.

That's not an opinion, that is gospel.