Star Dreck

As a resident of Iowa, who was dragged to the movie by her son, the two things that totally put me off were as follows:

1. I'm not sure how far in the future this is all supposed to take place, but why is Iowa presented as a dusty place full of cornfields and dirt roads? Hell, I've lived here all my life, and I haven't seen an actual dirt road in close to 20 years. I'd like to think that by the 22nd or 23rd century, Iowa might have advanced at least a slight bit past the mid 1950s. Which is the era Kirk seemed to be living in, because modern day Iowa looks nothing like what they showed. Believe it or not, we do have actual cities. I know they were trying to make some sort of point about Kirk being a small-town rebel and a loner, but honestly. James Dean did it better back in the early 1960s.

2. Where in the everloving hell did he get that cherry car? Will cars even run on gas in the future? Will there be any natural gas left to make gasoline? If his father's dead, I can only assume that Starfleet must pay mighty good death benefits for James T. Kirk to be tearing around an Iowa countryside that hasn't existed since before I was born in a car that, right now, would cost maybe $50,000. And that's assuming you bought it in junker condition and rebuilt it from the ground up.

I watched the original Star Trek series in reruns, and was rather slavishly devoted to it when I was in 7th and 8th grade. Then I discovered Mission:Impossible and Monty Python's Flying Circus and kind've lost interest. I'll occasionally stumble across a rerun and find myself wondering why in the hell I was so impressed with this crap when I was 13, but then, that's a relatively normal reaction to one's teenage years.

At least I didn't have to pay my own money to see it. Otherwise, I would've been REALLY pissed.

Edited to add: And I just read Keith Fraser's comment about the Federation using barter instead of actual cash and things being scarce, which just renders the whole scene with Kirk and the car that much more surreal.

Keith Fraser wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

- McCoy's rant about how his evil wife took everything in the divorce

I'd forgotten that. It annoyed me too, but for a different reason: the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia that doesn't use money (by and large, they sometimes do on the frontier and/or in trading with other societies but it's definitely stated that money has been abolished).

Yes, in the 24th century (and even that got retconned away at some point along the line as being unworkable). In the 23rd century (pre-replicator), there was definitely some form of currency in circulation. Kirk mentions it in at least two episodes of the Original Series, as does Spock and Uhura.

Keith Fraser wrote:

Mr. Comic Book wrote:

And the author of that aforementioned Superman Returns script? None other than JJ Abrams, who to this day still sees nothing wrong with what he did and thinks the backlash to that script was unjustified!

I wonder what franchise he'll try to screw up next? Maybe he'll be hired to do a reboot after the Transformers movies stop making money, and come up with some messed up scenario where Cybertron is a time-travelling future Earth and the Transformers are all biological under their outer casings because they're future humans using cybernetics!

It couldn't be any more incomprehensible than Revenge of the Fallen

Plus, fanficcers have been writing Transformers as "humanlike" under their "armour" for ages now. So they can have bumsex.

Rabid Badger wrote:

As a resident of Iowa, who was dragged to the movie by her son, the two things that totally put me off were as follows:

1. I'm not sure how far in the future this is all supposed to take place, but why is Iowa presented as a dusty place full of cornfields and dirt roads? Hell, I've lived here all my life, and I haven't seen an actual dirt road in close to 20 years. I'd like to think that by the 22nd or 23rd century, Iowa might have advanced at least a slight bit past the mid 1950s.

Weeell, in Star Trek canon the earth was devastated by nuclear weapons in World War Three, some time in the 21st/22nd century, so that might explain it. But still, I see your point.

What I'm wondering is with Vulcan gone, how will that affect the rest of the Trek universe? Would Tuvok ever exist? And What's going to happen when the handful of remaining Vulcans goes on a Pon Far jones?

Rabid Badger wrote:

As a resident of Iowa, who was dragged to the movie by her son, the two things that totally put me off were as follows:

1. I'm not sure how far in the future this is all supposed to take place, but why is Iowa presented as a dusty place full of cornfields and dirt roads? Hell, I've lived here all my life, and I haven't seen an actual dirt road in close to 20 years. I'd like to think that by the 22nd or 23rd century, Iowa might have advanced at least a slight bit past the mid 1950s. Which is the era Kirk seemed to be living in, because modern day Iowa looks nothing like what they showed. Believe it or not, we do have actual cities.

Well, to be fair, when Earth is shown in Trek, it sometimes seems to be a kind of Disneyworld nostalgic recreation of its 20th-century self, probably because WW3 in the 21st century (see First Contact - 600 million died, so it must've been pretty bad) wrecked everything. Hence the cornfields and dirt roads could be just a recreation of an idealized rural Iowa. Also, I think I remember seeing giant skyscrapers on the horizon in those scenes.

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Edited to add: And I just read Keith Fraser's comment about the Federation using barter instead of actual cash and things being scarce, which just renders the whole scene with Kirk and the car that much more surreal.

Well, in a post-scarcity utopia where replicator technology exists, a copy of a 20th-century car would be essentially free as long as you had access to a replicator and a computer program to tell it how to make one. I'm not sure if an average Federation citizen would have access to a large enough replicator to make a car, although you could probably make the parts in a smaller one and then put the car together yourself (something an auto enthusiast might do). If it was an actual 20th-century antique, it would be virtually priceless, the equivalent of a Faberge egg or a Stradivarius violin, and only a complete idiot would subject it to actual driving (unless they didn't mind ultimately replacing all the original parts with replicated ones), never mind let a stroppy kid near it.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Yes, in the 24th century (and even that got retconned away at some point along the line as being unworkable). In the 23rd century (pre-replicator), there was definitely some form of currency in circulation. Kirk mentions it in at least two episodes of the Original Series, as does Spock and Uhura.

Ah. But even so, even in TOS-era the Federation was supposed to be a utopia that had conquered mundane social ills. This got watered down a bit later, especially in DS9, but I still think that someone being bankrupted by a divorce doesn't really fit in Federation society. It seems like the sort of thing Federation characters would shake their heads and tut over when they encountered it in another species.

Keith Fraser wrote:

It seems like the sort of thing Federation characters would shake their heads and tut over when they encountered it in another species.

This is why everyone hates Star Trek.

Rabid Badger wrote:

2. Where in the everloving hell did he get that cherry car? Will cars even run on gas in the future? Will there be any natural gas left to make gasoline? If his father's dead, I can only assume that Starfleet must pay mighty good death benefits for James T. Kirk to be tearing around an Iowa countryside that hasn't existed since before I was born in a car that, right now, would cost maybe $50,000. And that's assuming you bought it in junker condition and rebuilt it from the ground up.

It belongs to his step-father, who can be heard yelling to him through the phone-thing-whatever before Kirk trashes the car.

Sakurelf wrote:

It belongs to his step-father, who can be heard yelling to him through the phone-thing-whatever before Kirk trashes the car.

See, it's a sign of how uninteresting the movie was that I'd completely forgotten that till you mentioned it.

Lysander wrote:

Keith Fraser wrote:

It seems like the sort of thing Federation characters would shake their heads and tut over when they encountered it in another species.

This is why everyone hates Star Trek.

Gee thanks. Do I readily dismiss your fandoms with broad generalizations as well?

Rabid Badger wrote:

Sakurelf wrote:

It belongs to his step-father, who can be heard yelling to him through the phone-thing-whatever before Kirk trashes the car.

See, it's a sign of how uninteresting the movie was that I'd completely forgotten that till you mentioned it.

Uninteresting? No. Fast paced? Yes, definitely. Believe it or not, Nero's pregnant wife is actually pictured in the film. But if you blink, you miss her. So much character development time lost for shots of lens flares and UST.

I will admit, the Star Trek fandom is not for everyone. If you come to Star Trek looking for something that isn't camp, and isn't a space-cowboy adventure, Star Trek isn't for you. This movie is an updated version of "you get what you pay for"

The complaints I see here, while valid in terms of judging sci-fi in general, is like complaining "You know, I like True Blood, but I just don't like sex and I don't like vampires"
You get what you pay for.

Well, I can't believe I actually looked it up ---BUT it seems the military chain works much faster in the ST universe.

According to the Memory Alpha wiki, training at the Starfleet Academy takes 3-4 years and Pike rose to captain in 4 years after graduating. (The info implies its unlikely but doable.)

Kirk going from cadet to captain over the course of three days at most seems par the course in that universe. He DID save Earth, after all, that's like... extra credit or something.

As for Spock, he'd already graduated some time ago in the movie and was already commander. MCoy enlisted and was automatically made Lieutenant Commander because he was already a doctor.

All the speed can be hand-waved by claiming Starfleet is NASA on steroids, not US Army with spaceships. And everyone seems to be born geniuses.

Behold! Memory Alpha for all your Trek nerd needs!

EDIT: Also, they definitely use money. The wiki mentions that in a deleted scene that the stepdad wanted to sell the car behind his mother's back. The mom is off-planet, and I somehow doubt she was on vacation. Apparently, you CAN have money and buy stuff, but it's not vital if you don't, so you can live off pretty well without it. So antiques can be sorta cheap if you don't have any other debts. Wiki sez:

Quote :

"Under the New World Economy material needs and money no longer existed and humanity
had grown out of its infancy. People were no longer obsessed with the
accumulation of things, effectively eliminating hunger and want and the
need for possessions. The challenge and driving force then were to
improve oneself, to enrich oneself and the betterment of all humanity."

So yeah.

Ceres wrote:

Kirk going from cadet to captain over the course of three days at most seems par the course in that universe. He DID save Earth, after all, that's like... extra credit or something.

Not three days. Three years. There was a very brief graphic indicating that three years passed between the scene on the shuttle where Kirk meets McCoy and Kirk takes the Kobayashi Maru test for the third time.

Plus Pike did make him acting first officer before he left the ship at Vulcan - it's implied that it's either a breveting or a field commission.

Ceres wrote:

As for Spock, he'd already graduated some time ago in the movie and was already commander. MCoy enlisted and was automatically made Lieutenant Commander because he was already a doctor.

And Scotty, Sulu and Chekov were already at their established ranks as well. So really, the only two that seem to make that fast track are Kirk (Cadet to First Officer to Acting Captain to Captain) and Uhura (Cadet to Lieutenant).

Quote :

Not three days. Three years. There was a
very brief graphic indicating that three years passed between the scene
on the shuttle where Kirk meets McCoy and Kirk takes the Kobayashi Maru test for the third time.

No, I know about the three years. I meant the three days in which Vulcan blew up and shit started happening. Although the field commission makes sense.

Also, more on the economy, because I love this shit: The Economy of ST

Quote :

Humans don't need money. This is because
there is no currency used on Earth. All citizens receive an allotment of Replicator Credits (to provide food and other material needs), Transporter Credits (to use transporters, maglev trains and
shuttles), Structure Credits (for housing and storage). The allotments are
based off the needs of the citizen (and his dependents) and are more then enough to provide an excellent, healthy standard of living. There are of course limits. A citizen can exceed these limits in three ways.
Savings, Applications for Grants, and good old fashion Work. A
person desiring to create his own full size replica of "The Statue of Liberty" would either save his replicator credits until he could "buy" one (this would take a very long time), apply for a grant (requiring him to
justify how another statue will benefit the UFP), or work in a business that enhances the lives of those around him until he has earned enough to "purchase" the replica.

Quote :

Service in Starfleet offers FULL coverage for the officer (or enlisted). This includes medical, educational, transportation,
Even holodeck usage is covered. Despite this there are times when
a Crew member will wish to purchase a service or object that isn't available on a starship. To do this the crewmember must make a request of the officer in charge of disbursements. The request will usually
include a list of what the money will be used for. Funds are generally
allocated more by need then by rank or position. Approval is quickly
granted for most reasonable requests. Though
crewmembers will often face a unofficial reprimand for forcing
Starfleet to pay a large gambling debt. Starfleet
personnel who show excessive greed or an unhealthy "obsession" with
collecting certain objects will be diagnosed with a personality disorder and recommended for counseling.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Lysander wrote:

Keith Fraser wrote:

It seems like the sort of thing Federation characters would shake their heads and tut over when they encountered it in another species.

This is why everyone hates Star Trek.

Gee thanks. Do I readily dismiss your fandoms with broad generalizations as well?

No, I'm far more brutal to things I actually like.

The closest entertainment to my heart is a cheesy movie series, it's prequels, and the ocean of merchandised crap that shat from the ass of George Lucas. It barely qualifies as sci-fi, and the series has sold out so many times that the oldest, crustiest whore in all of Bankok could not compare. It honestly destroyed the life of Jake Lloyd, who might have been a promising young actor in the hands of a director that wasn't Lucas. It's completely played out after nearly a decade of overexposure, and is current stuck in a sub-Ewoks level of post-trilogy suck that will probably take another ten/fifteen years to crawl out of, if it ever does. Even allowing for all that, I wouldn't participate in the psychotic online fandom if you paid me in solid gold blowjobs.

And not a damn bit of that makes me love it any less. :hmm:

Watch some sfdebris, read some worst of Trek, and come to love your stupid cheesy sci-fi, warts and all.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Plus Pike did make him acting first officer before he left the ship at Vulcan - it's implied that it's either a breveting or a field commission.

You're gonna get a lot farther with "it's Trek, therefore it is silly" school of thought than trying to suggest that it makes any sense whatsoever for a cadet to receive an instant field commission when there are many existing, commissioned, experienced officers in the chain of command between himself and the Captain.

Ceres wrote:

Although the field commission makes sense.

No. No, it really doesn't. Basically the point of a field commission is that you have run out of suitable replacements in the chain of command for officers, and so an experienced enlisted individual (or at least the ranking enlisted) is promoted to an officer's rank. You don't pick out some buck private in the trenches and say "Oh dear, Captain Coattails has kicked the bucket. You there, Private Pantaloons, take charge!"

Penguin wrote:

You're gonna get a lot farther with "it's Trek, therefore it is silly" school of thought than trying to suggest that it makes any sense whatsoever for a cadet to receive an instant field commission when there are many existing, commissioned, experienced officers in the chain of command between himself and the Captain.

Because Kirk is a Sue. The laws of logic and reason bow to him.

I liked the movie. But it's a popcorn movie, not great cinema. It was fun and funny and ridiculous, but that was the point.

Also, I got to stare at Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto for a bit and that makes me happy.

And, as a side question, I was under the impression that the Japanese didn't have an "l" sound, so how is his name "Sulu"? (This is genuine curiousity, not making a point)

Lapin wrote:

And, as a side question, I was under the impression that the Japanese didn't have an "l" sound, so how is his name "Sulu"? (This is genuine curiousity, not making a point)

Fanon (and the novels) tends to go with the belief Sulu as a mix of Japanese and Filipino ancestry. The Japanese dub changed his surname to "Kato".

Lapin wrote:

And, as a side question, I was under the impression that the Japanese didn't have an "l" sound, so how is his name "Sulu"? (This is genuine curiousity, not making a point)

I can't remember if Sulu is supposed to be Japanese (I think Roddenberry created the character to simply be "Asian"), or Japanese-American, or a different nationality/ethnicity.

He's supposed to be an American (San Francisco is apparently his hometown) of Japanese descent. (I'm getting a little too involved with Star Trek)

Lapin wrote:

He's supposed to be an American (San Francisco is apparently his hometown) of Japanese descent. (I'm getting a little too involved with Star Trek)

The easy answer, of course, is that Roddenberry had no idea about the Japanese language. :teach:
You could make a point for his name being する　("suru" - although that would be one hell of a weird surname, considering "suru" means "to do" in Japanese) and having been romanized wrongly, but I think it would be pretty pathetic if this still happened in 22nd century America, with universal translators and all that fun stuff around.

Ergo, I tag the problem with "creator was a dumbshit" and merrily ignore it!

As for the movie, I thought it was a lot of fun, although it had ridiculous science and scenes that were only there because they looked good and contributed nothing to the story. It felt like classic Trek to me, and that was what counted for me, especially after the last two crappy TNG movies.

Lapin wrote:

He's supposed to be an American (San Francisco is apparently his hometown) of Japanese descent. (I'm getting a little too involved with Star Trek)

There's a Sulu Sea in the Philippines. Maybe he's Filipino on his dad's side and Japanese on his mom's side. (BTW, why is the country spelled with a Ph and the nationality spelled with an F? I always thought that was kind of strange.)

Melissa wrote:

Lapin wrote:

He's supposed to be an American (San Francisco is apparently his hometown) of Japanese descent. (I'm getting a little too involved with Star Trek)

There's a Sulu Sea in the Philippines. Maybe he's Filipino on his dad's side and Japanese on his mom's side. (BTW, why is the country spelled with a Ph and the nationality spelled with an F? I always thought that was kind of strange.)

That's the explanation commonly accepted (and which I posted upthread).

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(BTW, why is the country spelled with a Ph and the nationality spelled with an F? I always thought that was kind of strange.)

The original name is in Spanish and spelled Las Filipinas, so there's that.

Nihilist wrote:

Trioculus wrote:

I'm still trying to save up the $80 I need to get one of those Polar Lights 1/350 Refit model kits.

It's $62 on Amazon. I'd love to have one myself.

Ooo, not one, but two fellow modelers it seems.