Movies That are Going to Suck: Part Deux

This is a nice chart about the current situation with POC in Marvel Studios films:

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And here is a great article about it.

I really love that you're basically telling me to stop complaining, though

I would merely point out the X-Men and Blade shaped holes in that argument.

And that the source materials for The Avegengerverse were pretty Caucasian-heavy to begin with, so either you'd have to make up POC characters, race life existing ones (o hai Nick Fury) or dig deep into the obscure character bag. Which the exception of Rhodey from Iron Man.

Guys guys guys guys guys.

Life isn't fair now let's stop having this discussion.

Omg I can't believe I actually have to tell you guys this....

Freezer wrote:

I would merely point out the X-Men and Blade shaped holes in that argument.

And that the source materials for The Avegengerverse were pretty Caucasian-heavy to begin with, so either you'd have to make up POC characters, race life existing ones (o hai Nick Fury) or dig deep into the obscure character bag. Which the exception of Rhodey from Iron Man.

...should also mention that Catwoman starred Halle Berry, and Spawn starred Michael Jai White.

PendragonGirl wrote:

This is a nice chart about the current situation with POC in Marvel Studios films:

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And here is a great article about it.

I really love that you're basically telling me to stop complaining, though

Yeah, let's ignore the part where a Norse God is a played by a black man.

"But Mikey he was an alien in the movie!!1!" How is an alien looking like a black man any less silly than a Norse God looking like a black man?

Also, no bitching about Hugo Weaving playing a villain. Ever.

Also also, Faran Tahir (left most "Supporting Antagonist") is most certainly not a white man, you fucking idiot.

EDIT: We're basically telling you to grab the Jaws of Life and pull your head out of your ass with them.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Guys guys guys guys guys.

Life isn't fair now let's stop having this discussion.

Omg I can't believe I actually have to tell you guys this....

Except they are actually having a discussion to which degree superhero movies offer a fair representation of race or not. You were whining about why white men are the norm in these movies and why Hollywood is so cruel. One is a discussion that may actually have some merit, the other is a discussion that doesn't really offer any different conclusions, no matter how many times you go offer it. So, again, do tell me: did you actually think that your conclusion of 'white = the norm' was such an earth-shattering revelation? Is that really the thing you're gonna defend here?

Freezer wrote:

were pretty Caucasian-heavy to begin with, so either you'd have to make up POC characters, race life existing ones (o hai Nick Fury)

Nick Fury turned into Samuel L. Jackson in the comics first!

OrigiUltiNick:
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UltiNick about a year later:
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And that the source materials for The Avegengerverse comics were are pretty Caucasian-heavy to begin with

FTFY.

For the record, if Marvel ever pulled its finger out both Luke Cage and Black Panther could work pretty damn well with the established MarvelMovieVerse


Don't hold your breath for DC though. They went through great pains to turn FireStorm back white so as to make the Justice League racially pure for the reboot (and only invented John Stewart so they could get a cartoon series made - as amazing as it was - once he'd done that job he was reduced to a footnote.). And their most pushed black character since forever was Steel. And this is what he deserved (Mind you, that was in the early 90's before X-Men made comic movies work. But we're still dealing with DC/Warner Brothers in the end so... if it's not a cartoon it'll fail as hard as anything - But still Steel was a titanic case of DC trying too hard to fix its lack of racial diversity... Seriously: An iron worker called John Henry fucking Irons becomes Steel. And I'm supposed to take this Seriously!? As a potential replacement for fucking Superman?)

Still we can dream...

Jay/Cris wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Guys guys guys guys guys.

Life isn't fair now let's stop having this discussion.

Omg I can't believe I actually have to tell you guys this....

Except they are actually having a discussion to which degree superhero movies offer a fair representation of race or not. You were whining about why white men are the norm in these movies and why Hollywood is so cruel. One is a discussion that may actually have some merit, the other is a discussion that doesn't really offer any different conclusions, no matter how many times you go offer it. So, again, do tell me: did you actually think that your conclusion of 'white = the norm' was such an earth-shattering revelation? Is that really the thing you're gonna defend here?

Superhero movies do not offer a fair representation of race, but it's normal because Hollywood in general doesn't, and it's not because Hollywood is mean, it's because our cultural narrative is still written by straight, white men. That was my point, just spun off of my discussion between you and Freezer.

Ok, so we make Heimdall and Nick Fury black men. Meanwhile the only superhero movie directed at general audiences to star a black man (that I can think of) was Blade. Why not black Green Lantern? Hell, why not Black Panther? He was badass. And he's an Avengers tie-in.

Let's forget background characters because I was getting off the point, but there has been a Marvel movie coming out about once a year for more than a decade now, and Nick Fury is the only really memorable PoC character that has been a major player in the plot.

EDIT: In fact, as to "well comics aren't the most diverse source material" why don't comic book movies cast more PoC in traditionally white roles? Why not make Hawkeye an Asian man? There are more PoC actors in Hollywood than Samuel L. Jackson and Morgan Freeman.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Superhero movies do not offer a fair representation of race, but it's normal because Hollywood in general doesn't, and it's not because Hollywood is mean, it's because our cultural narrative is still written by straight, white men. That was my point, just spun off of my discussion between you and Freezer.

Oh, that was your point? Really? I didn't understand that the first three times you made it. It's lovely to make that point, isn't it, despite the fact that the discussion had progressed beyond this rather basic point already. Thanks for reviewing it again and again, even though nobody is arguing against this particular point.

Seriously, anybody, raise your hand if this:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

our cultural narrative is still written by straight, white men

for you, was this:

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For fuck's sake.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

In fact, as to "well comics aren't the most diverse source material" why don't comic book movies cast more PoC in traditionally white roles? Why not make Hawkeye an Asian man?

Mr.Doobie wrote:

our cultural narrative is still written by straight, white men

Seriously.

WD40 wrote:

But we're still dealing with DC/Warner Brothers in the end so... if it's not a cartoon it'll fail as hard as anything - But still Steel was a titanic case of DC trying too hard to fix its lack of racial diversity... Seriously: An iron worker called John Henry fucking Irons becomes Steel. And I'm supposed to take this Seriously!? As a potential replacement for fucking Superman?)

1) John Henry Irons wasn't a metal worker - he was a weapons engineer and ballistics expert (who just happened to be a Scary Black Guy).
2) Steel was never meant to "replace" Superman - even in story.
3) DC has a ready made, movie-ready POC character ready to go in Static (hell, the Milestone universe, really. Well, maybe not Xombi...), should they ever stop trying to match Marvel, move for more and work with what they have.
4) One more thing on the subject of contention, and then I'll STFU: In universes where we have superhumans, alien invasions, crazy mad SCIENCE! and a major American city getting trashed by an anarchist nutball and his minions TWICE, diversity in crowd scenes is where you draw the line of "This is not realistic?"

*shrugs* Have fun with that.

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Oh, that was your point? Really? I didn't understand that the first three times you made it. It's lovely to make that point, isn't it, despite the fact that the discussion had progressed beyond this rather basic point already. Thanks for reviewing it again and again, even though nobody is arguing against this particular point.

So we can agree that it sucks to be a PoC actor in Hollywood and that comic book movies (and movies in general) should be more diverse? Oh, ok. Why are we even talking about this anymore, then? Let's go fix it...

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Why don't comic book movies cast more PoC in traditionally white roles?

Personally I don't like this thinking, if you're gonna do it to make the character try and go in different directions, then sure go for it, but there are two very easy traps to fall into doing this and both can but audiences off.
I'll use Hawkeye as an example seeing as you mentioned him.
Because I'm pretty sure an Asian Hawkeye would have grown up in a different place, been treated differently by his peers and would react differently to people, and could easily come across as a very different character, change them too much and then you get people asking why not just make them a totally different hero, because otherwise you end up with a Hawkeye in name only, and nobody wants that.
The other way round is you have them act exactly the same as they did as the white character, but you've changed their skin colour because you wanted to diversify and for no other reason, which can come across as tokenism.

I'm pretty sure I've got the wrong end of several sticks here but that's just how I see it

Freezer wrote:

WD40 wrote:

But we're still dealing with DC/Warner Brothers in the end so... if it's not a cartoon it'll fail as hard as anything - But still Steel was a titanic case of DC trying too hard to fix its lack of racial diversity... Seriously: An iron worker called John Henry fucking Irons becomes Steel. And I'm supposed to take this Seriously!? As a potential replacement for fucking Superman?)

1) John Henry Irons wasn't a metal worker - he was a weapons engineer and ballistics expert (who just happened to be a Scary Black Guy).

I genuinely thought that as made up for the movie. Just did a bit of wiki-ing, so yeah... Well that helps explain where the fucking suit came from..

Bear in mind that almost everything I know about DC is from 30-sec Google searches and shitty memory. The only interaction I ever had with Steel was the Reign of the Supermen, when he is introduced as a construction worker. I honestly didn't think his story went deeper... I was about 12 and far more interested in the energy-shooting dude and the terminator-looking guy.

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2) Steel was never meant to "replace" Superman - even in story.

Strong wording, fair enough. But the impression I got at the time was that Supes was dead - and we had no idea he was gonna come back - and that one of these four guys would pick up the mantle. We were supposed to accept them, at least on some level, as a potential replacement. And Steel was still pushed something hard for several years after the return, and he was never worth it. Steel, dispute his push, didn't have a chance because he looked dumb, was a grandfather, and wore a form fitting metal suit in an era when Iron Man started looking cool because suddenly his knees had joints.

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3) DC has a ready made, movie-ready POC character ready to go in Static (hell, the Milestone universe, really. Well, maybe not Xombi...), should they ever stop trying to match Marvel, move for more and work with what they have.

Check my last link. They've also got Black Thunder (Pfft) and, if they're feeling really risky (or have a sudden attack of awesomeness, courage and creativity) Mr. Terrific.

But this will never happen for two reasons: "Warner" and "Brothers".

WB wants/desperately needs/preys for every day of its soulless, creativity-vacuum void of a life for a franchise it can launch from film one and have a success story with. See: Batman, Superman, Green Lantern.

And now they're trying to make Justice League, out of the gate, utilising three characters, who will almost certainly have to be rebooted for the film (probably within the film, because Batman has run his current course, Man Of Steel looks set to copy Green Lantern and Green Lantern blowed and, to the best of my knowledge, didn't even have a teaser for JL)

Warner Bros. will play it "safe" as hard as it can with movies, because it has a titanic track record of fucking them up when they're not Superman (debatable) or Batman (Who they did some serious damage to in the 90's) "safe" means lowest common denominator, minimum effort, discussion groups, test audiences and intervention from people who have no business intervening beyond their own lack of confidence in the ability of the people they've hired.

So- even before the movie starts getting made - these problems will garentee that only the instantly recognisable titles will get optioned, and as you said these folks don't tend to be minorities.

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4) One more thing on the subject of contention, and then I'll STFU: In universes where we have superhumans, alien invasions, crazy mad SCIENCE! and a major American city getting trashed by an anarchist nutball and his minions TWICE, diversity in crowd scenes is where you draw the line of "This is not realistic?"

*shrugs* Have fun with that.

*takes breath*

*pauses*

...


[edit]

In the plus column for WB/DC and where they are squarely kicking Marvel in the nads is the animated films & series.

WB execs don't care too much for those because, fuck it, they're only for kids, which gives the people who make the stuff (and genuinely love it) pretty much free reign. To the point that they used a new series, Young Justice, to provide closure for a cancelled series: Unlimited/Justice League. This is fucking awesome! and they were able to do that, because of the absolute absence of all the shit that fucks up their movies.

Marvel's animated stuff on the other hand... I can't even begin to tell you how much this sucked. or how typical it is of Marvel's animated content.

[edit edit]

So, another area where a section of society is under-represented is ladies, right? Well, according to this the plot of the Guardians of the Galaxy movie runs along these lines:

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About a U.S. pilot who ends up in space in the middle of a universal conflict and goes on the run with futuristic ex-cons who have something everyone wants.

What some people are thinking hoping is...

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Now... There's every chance it'll be Chris Summers, or some renamed reincarnation of him. But Marvel has been pushing Carol Danvers for a while now (she's not Ms. Marvel right now, she's Captain Marvel) and it could fit quite easily into Avengers 2 (Which is being headed by JW who has gone on record saying that he wanted to add in another female character) and having a ladyperson who isn't Black Wido and who can hold their own against Cap, Stark, Hulk and Thor would be fricken' awesome!

Here's hoping...

[edit edit edit]

A Greater Nerd has reminded me that Vance Astrovik (Justice/Marvel boy) was a (time travelling) Astronaut, got suck in the far reaches of space and went on to actually join the Guardians for a short while... So... Probably him... Let's keep hoping that it's Carol though...

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Because I'm pretty sure an Asian Hawkeye would have grown up in a different place, been treated differently by his peers and would react differently to people, and could easily come across as a very different character, change them too much and then you get people asking why not just make them a totally different hero, because otherwise you end up with a Hawkeye in name only, and nobody wants that.

I'm pretty sure the Hawkeye they presented was "Hawkeye in name only". I could be wrong, but hasn't he always been one of Marvels more.... uninteresting characters? I mean, tell me something you know about Hawkeye, besides "he's a really good marksman".

The Hawkeye they presented in the Avengers could've easily been played by an Asian man, a black man, a Filipino, a white guy, hell, even a woman wouldn't have been that much of a stretch because there wasn't much to the guy. He was a government agent and assassin, he was friends with Black Widow, and he was angry at getting mind controlled.

I think characters like Hawkeye offer a lot of wiggle room, making them prime candidates for overhauls, maybe even racial. And who knows? Making him a PoC could make him more interesting. If done well and tastefully. It would also give young PoC more role models.

I think Nick Fury had a lot more going for him than Hawkeye, and no one really batted an eyelash when they made him Samuel L. Jackson.

EDIT: because the only thing I remember about comic Hawkeye besides the bows is that he's a really shitty husband...

Mr.Doobie wrote:

EDIT: because the only thing I remember about comic Hawkeye besides the bows is that he's a really shitty husband...

And everything you said can be discounted cause apparently can't the difference between Clint Barton and Hank Pym.

WD40 wrote:

Marvel's animated stuff on the other hand... I can't even begin to tell you how much this sucked. or how typical it is of Marvel's animated content.

Objection: That's typical of the straight-to-video Ultimates-based content. To say that this is what most Marvel animated product looks like ignores Earth's Mightiest Heroes, Spectacular Spider-Man, Wolverine & The X-Men, hell - even Superhero Squad.

Somath Cegem wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

EDIT: because the only thing I remember about comic Hawkeye besides the bows is that he's a really shitty husband...

And everything you said can be discounted cause apparently can't the difference between Clint Barton and Hank Pym.

Clint was a shitty husband, just in a completely different way than Hank. Read this to see what I'm talking about.

Freezer wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

EDIT: because the only thing I remember about comic Hawkeye besides the bows is that he's a really shitty husband...

And everything you said can be discounted cause apparently can't the difference between Clint Barton and Hank Pym.

Clint was a shitty husband, just in a completely different way than Hank. Read this to see what I'm talking about.

Oh wait a minute, I was thinking of Ultimate Hawkeye, who loved his wife and kids to bits and was shown interacting with them in positive ways, then he went a bit loopy after they where killed by some Russians that were trying to capture him, never mind then.

Lady Anne wrote:

Jay/Cris wrote:

Mr. Comic Book wrote:

*Sigh* Christopher Nolan strikes out yet AGAIN with the Batman franchise.

So, remember all that talk? Well, too bad the entire movie was awesomely awesome.

Mr. Comic Book reminds me of one of those film reviewers who are so intent upon their highly educated opinions of what a film should be that they miss all the fun.

I'll just repost (yet again) what I said in another topic, since it apparently didn't sink in the last time I posted it in this topic:

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Not only did Nolan have the mistakes of Burton and Schumacher to learn from, but he also had decades of comics to work with, find the good stuff, avoid the bad stuff, and make the most of it. He even had the animated series -- which still stands as the definitive mass-media version of the character -- to use as a model. So what do we get? A bizarre, arrogant, incomprehensible mishmash of the Frank Miller/post-Miller comics, the worst excesses of Burton and Schumacher (to say nothing of plot points and action scenes recycled from both), and faux-crime flick "realism" slathered all over it. No likeable characters at all, no energy or life from the actors, no sense of any kind of fun...I'm just going to say it now. These are the worst movies I've ever seen in my life. I have never felt as infuriated and insulted by a movie as I have by these two.

and

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One of the problems I run into as a fan is that those who revere the Nolan (or if we're talking comics, Miller) version will accuse you of wanting "camp" if you feel this way. There's a bizarre notion that if Batman has emotions other than hate and arrogance and actually cares about people, if the story/movie/show is enjoyable and enthralling, if it embraces the inherent fantasy of the character and his world, and if it's something viewers of all ages and walks of life can connect to, then it's just warmed-over Adam West. The funny thing is, the animated series was all of those things and wasn't campy. It had its darker, more somber times, yes, but that show also let its hair down and got crazy. Some of its episodes were shameless comedies, there was always wiseass dialogue and situations (Batman perpetrating quite a few of them), and breaking the fourth wall was far from uncommon. It was, at its core, a rousing adventure series set against a noir backdrop, much as the Golden and Bronze Age comic books it so reflected did. Take the material seriously? Sure. But it shouldn't preclude the film or series from being fun to watch. And that's one of the problems with Nolan's movies. They're not fun. They're dreary, bleak, and self-satisfied to no end. And their idea of "realism" actually hurts the films rather than helps. The overblown armors for Batman, the Joker being a scarred guy in crappy greasepaint, the Batmobile as rooftop-riding tank, Ra's Al Ghul being gutted of everything that makes him Ra's...they look and feel far more ridiculous and implausible than their comic book/cartoon counterparts. For a live-action movie, that's a fatal mistake.

I mean, I know not everything from a comic book, be it character designs or story details, can translate to film. Comics and movies have different story structures, visual needs, and pacing requirements, so some change is inevitable when transferring between mediums. But that doesn't mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater or eliminate any sense of fun or fantasy from it. There has to be a balance somewhere of adapting the material in a way that works on film but retains the spirit, the energy, and the exuberance of the best the material has to offer. And it always bugs me that nobody even wants to try finding that balance. And, as you say, it's a problem with a lot of comic book films in general these days.

Contrary to what you claim, I'm not "missing the fun" of Nolan's movies. I'm not finding any fun in them, period. There's nothing to miss because these movies have nothing for me to latch on to. For me to think these movies are good, I would have to be of the mindset that "grim-n-gritty = inherently good regardless of context or execution" and "you're not supposed to think about it; you're supposed to just enjoy it without question" (both of which are arguments I've been faced with and seen others faced with). And that's not going to happen. If that offends you, that's too bad. But I'm not going to force myself to enjoy egotistical, pretentious shit because it's the popular thing to like. Nor am I going to force myself to watch and enjoy the third installment of a series whose first two installments were unbearable for me and when said third installment looks and feels like more of the same shit I've hated about the first two. You might as well order me to watch and like Michael Bay's Transformers trilogy regardless of being turned off by the first film, or to like any other bad franchise even if the first installment alienated me. Popularity = obligation to love it, especially when I've already explained WHY I have problems with it.

In short, get over yourself.

Mr Comic Book wrote:

Mr Comic Book's Post

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But yes, all the flaws you listed are accurate. I still find the movies watchable, but I also still find the people running around hollering about how it's the greatest series of movies in the history of forever fucking annoy me. Especially when Airplane and Airplane 2 are the best movies ever conceived.

I think most of the hype is because of Ledger croaking. That's what sparked off all the hype about The Dark Knight, and it carried over into The Dark Knight Rises.

*shrug* I fell asleep during the first one in the movie theater. The second one I didn't fall asleep, but I felt fine getting up to get a drink or use the bathroom without feeling like OMG I'M GOING TO MISS SOMETHING. They're ok, but they aren't exactly deep.

Never saw Batman Begins. Only saw The Dark Knight with Rifftrax enhancement.

Good movies, but I still don't quite get the adulation they receive.

I loved Batman Begins, and I especially loved the dark grittiness of it. It's the same thing I loved about the Hush comic series. I don't need my Batman with a pinch of salt, I like it nasty and dark. Not that I didn't adore the animated series...but. Well, never mind.

I don't think that Heath Ledger's death made people bow down in devotion to The Dark Knight, it was his performance, which was awesome. The Joker was the only thing I really loved about TDK, not because the movie was so OMG GRRITTY AND SRRRIOUS! but because the plot was needlessly complicated.

I watched Rises, and while I was entertained, the only thing I kept thinking was WHY? HOW?

Spoilers ahead!!

WHY did Batman take the blame for Two-Faces attrocities if there was the Joker to conveniently blame for EVERYTHING?

He's a frickin' billionaire. WHY does he mope around in his house for 8 FUCKING YEARS? Why doesn't he leave, if Gotham has become such a great and safe place, and have fun?

WHY is he so devastated when Alfred tells him whatsherface didn't actually love him that he fires him? It's 8 FUCKING years later, why does he still care? I mean, they keep harping on the fact that this all happened 8 years ago, but everybody acts as if only weeks have passed.

WHY, if Gotham has become a place of safety and prosperity because of Dent's law, does Thalia want to destroy it? I got why Ra's wanted to: Destroy what is absolutely rotten and then build it up again. Gotham is doing fine! Why fix what is already fixed?

WHY does Bane lie about who he is? He's Thalia's flunky. He claims he has been born from darkness and hasn't seen the light until he got out of prison. Later, Bruce Wayne is thrown into said prison and the sun shines down through the hole all the way to the ground.

WHY do people keep claiming the Hole is the worst prison, a hell on earth? It seems quite cosy to me, with all those men chanting 'Rise, Rise!' at regular times. Also, unbeatable? Inescapable? Uh, no. If some kid can do it, and Bruce Wayne with back trauma, more can do that.

WHY don't Thalia and Bane have an escape plan? Is this a suicide mission? WTF?

HOW did Batman get back to Gotham City after escaping the prison?

HOW is it possible that you can keep a timer that actually is accurate by the second on a bomb that will explode because of a destabalizing core?

WHY is there a shot of a ripped American flag at one moment? Why could anyone possibly want to hurt that poor flag?

WHY is Batman such an enormous prick? There's a handful of people who know who he is and he lets all of them think he's killed himself sacrificing himself with that bomb. Especially towards Alfred that is SUCH a terrible thing to do!

WHY did anyone think it was a good idea to make Wayne Manor into an orphanage? Orphanage = inquisitive boys exploring the grounds and FINDING THE BATCAVE AND ALL THAT"S STILL IN IT!!!

The list is longer but that's all I can come up with right now

[[ *psst* there's a spoiler tag like this:]]

Spoiler:

Also joining the apathy over BatNolan films. They remind me a lot of the Sam Rami Spiderman films (the first two, anyway). Fun, visually impressive, enjoyable but ultimately pretty forgettable.

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and Airplane 2 are the best movies ever conceived. Colbert

Omg this just explains everything...

I enjoyed the Nolan Batfilms, especially the third one. It completed the story and renewed my interest in Batman.