Movies That are Going to Suck: Part Deux

Freezer wrote:

It's just not that important to me and I simply don't see why people get that worked up about it.

Because we know that this line of thinking will never get us a decent Earthsea movie.

Lady Anne wrote:

PendragonGirl wrote:

Fine, you've got a point there.

Batman has a huge rogues gallery, though. Why not choose another villain who is white? There are plenty.

Scarecrow.

Scarecrow was the villain of Batman Begins and actually made a cameo in this movie. Also, clamoring for a white villain while also calling for additional non-white heroes sounds... off, people.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Tyler Perry movies and Ice Cube movies and all those other movies directed towards a "street" audience have a predominately black cast. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd? Possibly worth noting?

Considering what types of characters white people tend to be in those type movies (buffoons or "white devils"), I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. (Not that Tyler Perry movies do blacks any great service...)

Freezer wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Tyler Perry movies and Ice Cube movies and all those other movies directed towards a "street" audience have a predominately black cast. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd? Possibly worth noting?

Considering what types of characters white people tend to be in those type movies (buffoons or "white devils"), I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. (Not that Tyler Perry movies do blacks any great service...)

..... I don't think you quite understand the point of the question. It isn't just Batman. Why is it the only time we see a majorly black cast the movie is being directed at a niche audience? Forget about movies with a predominately Asian or hispanic cast.

I think it comes down to the fact that we're still living in a society defined by the needs and perspective of straight white men. That is seen as the norm.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Freezer wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Tyler Perry movies and Ice Cube movies and all those other movies directed towards a "street" audience have a predominately black cast. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd? Possibly worth noting?

Considering what types of characters white people tend to be in those type movies (buffoons or "white devils"), I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. (Not that Tyler Perry movies do blacks any great service...)

..... I don't think you quite understand the point of the question. It isn't just Batman. Why is it the only time we see a majorly black cast the movie is being directed at a niche audience? Forget about movies with a predominately Asian or hispanic cast.

I think it comes down to the fact that we're still living in a society defined by the needs and perspective of straight white men. That is seen as the norm.

ORLY?

Except that's not the case for Bollywood movies. Or movies made in Morocco, Nigeria or Brasil? So, basically, by 'a society' you mean 'the USA', right? Is it really odd that a market that relies on the consumers to buy their products is actually catering to the consumer? Because, last time I checked, the USA still boasted a population of 70% that identifies as 'white' or 'European American'. Which would basically mean that movies where the majority of the cast is black or Hispanic are, in fact, niche Movies.

In The Dark Knight Rises, we have, say, 8 main characters? Batman, Inspector Gordon, Alfred, Blake, Selina, Bane, Miranda and Fox. That would make 12.5% of the main cast a person of color, which isn't the fairest representation, but not the unfairest, either. (You could still make a case for Miranda, perhaps, since she looks... ethnically fluent and her backstory in the narrative gives us very little about what kind of background she actually has.) I'd be more concerned about the representation of women: 2 out of 8 main characters are women, and one of them is outright villaneous while the other is not... exactly heroic either. There is a third woman, sure, but she got stuffed in the refrigerator in the last movie, and has been reduced to a plot point for Bruce Wayne. Yay?

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Except that's not the case for Bollywood movies. Or movies made in Morocco, Nigeria or Brasil? So, basically, by 'a society' you mean 'the USA', right?

Fair. Part of growing up in this "society" (America) is you tend to forget the rest of the world does, indeed, exist. I probably should have left in the bit where I said "Hollywood".

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Because, last time I checked, the USA still boasted a population of 70% that identifies as 'white' or 'European American'. Which would basically mean that movies where the majority of the cast is black or Hispanic are, in fact, niche Movies.

Only Gotham is a city, and almost every city I've been to (save for the most Disneyfied areas of New York) has been a lot more diverse than most Hollywood movies put in a city. Hell, where I live all my neighbors are black. When I walk down the street almost everyone I see is black. Where I work? I have only one white coworker.

I'm not sure if Philly is an extreme example, I don't know these statistics, but, if we're still going with the Batman franchise as an example, I still found it odd that the entire Gotham police force (save the old Commissioner) was white, all of Jokers henchmen were white, every mobster (save for the guy with the cute name that Joker kills and that weird guy with the dog fetish that I couldn't tell if he was Italian or Cuban) and criminal were white, and almost every civilian was white.

Hollywood presents cities that just don't seem as diverse as cities IRL, imho. Not only that, but why don't we, generally, see a movie with a PoC main character or even a mostly PoC cast of main characters unless it's directed towards a niche audience? Because even though PoC are still a statistic minority, I don't think it's that hard for groups of them to congregate and have adventures or misadventures that are interesting for a general audience.

I remember watching Think Like a Man and thinking, man, this is a really shitty movie, but the main cast is pretty good. But I'm not going to see that cast in a movie directed at general audiences. Because America's perspective is still majorly whitewashed and our movies reflect that.

This might be tangentially related, but the Boondocks had an episode satirizing Tyler Perry, and one character went to a tryout for the episodes Tyler Perry parallel's newest play. While he was there he spotted a famous black actor and asked him what he was doing trying out for a Tyler Perry play. The black actor responded with, "It's work. What am I supposed to do? Wait for the next, Akeelah and the Bee? I got bills to pay." (paraphrased, but you get the idea)

Jay/Cris wrote:

Except that's not the case for Bollywood movies.

But there is the little fact that even in Bollywood movies they go for fair-skinned actors and actresses, not the shade of skin color that would actually represent the majority of the population. A lot of actors apparently are half-white. Icky brown people play villains, and skin bleaching creams are an "exploding market" (advertised for by light-skinned actors). So even Bollywood movies are "whitewashed", quite literally. What do you make of that?



Source: I'm not familiar with any of the websites that came up when I googled this, so I'm just randomly going with this one, because it doesn't seem as sensationalist as some others. But seriously, it's all over the place.

Why is White the Indian beauty ideal?

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Only Gotham is a city, and almost every city I've been to (save for the most Disneyfied areas of New York) has been a lot more diverse than most Hollywood movies put in a city. Hell, where I live all my neighbors are black. When I walk down the street almost everyone I see is black. Where I work? I have only one white coworker.

In my experience, this mostly depends on the neighbourhood you're in. I mean, I haven't seen all of the USA (obviously) but I've travelled through the south. What struck me is how unbelievably segregated the different neighbourhoods were. Some were all-white, some were all-black, some were all-Hispanic, and all of them were lacking variation. I'm not saying there aren't any integrated neighbourhoods -- SoHo and NoHo spring to mind -- but in general, yeah, it's perfectly possible to get the idea that where you live almost everyone is black, because that is the truth. That doesn't mean, however, that your neighbourhood is a representation of the entire USA, does it?

Mr.Doobie wrote:

I'm not sure if Philly is an extreme example, I don't know these statistics, but, if we're still going with the Batman franchise as an example, I still found it odd that the entire Gotham police force (save the old Commissioner) was white, all of Jokers henchmen were white, every mobster (save for the guy with the cute name that Joker kills and that weird guy with the dog fetish that I couldn't tell if he was Italian or Cuban) and criminal were white, and almost every civilian was white.

Have you seen The Dark Knight Rises? Not all the extras were white. Most of Bane's henchmen were vaguely Oriental looking and the first cop that emerges out of the sewers (only to be then promptly shot down because Blake's plan kind of fails) is not white. (Daniel Sunjata.) Also, the mayor of Gotham is played by Nestor Carbonell.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Hollywood presents cities that just don't seem as diverse as cities IRL, imho. Not only that, but why don't we, generally, see a movie with a PoC main character or even a mostly PoC cast of main characters unless it's directed towards a niche audience? Because even though PoC are still a statistic minority, I don't think it's that hard for groups of them to congregate and have adventures or misadventures that are interesting for a general audience.

You don't think so, but the studios do. They think it's a risk, in general, to cast non-white actors as the stars of a romcom or have ensembles that feature no white people. Hollywood presents white as the norm because white is the norm and they cater to the (idealized, slim, pretty) norm. Which is unfair, and perhaps stupid, but it's what works for them, apparently. If you want fairer representation for minorities, you'll have to look at the more offbeat Hollywood films or go into the indie field. That's just how it is.

Hollywood likes to be representative and fair and equal and yay, sure, but the big money raked in from the box office comes first.

grmbljfx wrote:

But there is the little fact that even in Bollywood movies they go for fair-skinned actors and actresses, not the shade of skin color that would actually represent the majority of the population. A lot of actors apparently are half-white. Icky brown people play villains, and skin bleaching creams are an "exploding market" (advertised for by light-skinned actors). So even Bollywood movies are "whitewashed", quite literally. What do you make of that?

I didn't know that. In all the Bollywood movies I've seen, the cast looked pretty damn Indian to me. This may not make Bollywood the best example, but it does, you know, exemplify that studios (no matter the country) cater to the idealized norm of their target audience. Which, in the case of Bollywood, is Indian, but the right, pale kind of Indian.

Jay/Cris wrote:

the cast looked pretty damn Indian to me.

Like the upper set, or the lower one?

Spoiler:

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This may not make Bollywood the best example, but it does, you know, exemplify that studios (no matter the country) cater to the idealized norm of their target audience. Which, in the case of Bollywood, is Indian, but the right, pale kind of Indian.

Yeah. But why in the world does whiter=better seem to have developed the world over?

grmblfjx wrote:

Yeah. But why in the world does whiter=better seem to have developed the world over?

Um. The Western world has the money, the power and the pretty cars? Like, even most of the poor people have cars. That's awesome!

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Which is unfair, and perhaps stupid, but it's what works for them, apparently.

Doesn't make it any less shitty.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

Which is unfair, and perhaps stupid, but it's what works for them, apparently.

Doesn't make it any less shitty.

Fuck. I just had a revelation.

Life is unfair.

Wow.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Freezer wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Tyler Perry movies and Ice Cube movies and all those other movies directed towards a "street" audience have a predominately black cast. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd? Possibly worth noting?

Considering what types of characters white people tend to be in those type movies (buffoons or "white devils"), I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. (Not that Tyler Perry movies do blacks any great service...)

..... I don't think you quite understand the point of the question. It isn't just Batman. Why is it the only time we see a majorly black cast the movie is being directed at a niche audience? Forget about movies with a predominately Asian or hispanic cast.

Black people are 12% of the American population.

So why would the majority of every cast be black? One major character out of about 10 is right in line with the average of the population, and therefore you need to shut the fuck up until you can think with your brain and not with your white guilt.

Jay/Cris wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

Which is unfair, and perhaps stupid, but it's what works for them, apparently.

Doesn't make it any less shitty.

Fuck. I just had a revelation.

Life is unfair.

Wow.

And it's wrong to understand how and why?

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Jay/Cris wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

Which is unfair, and perhaps stupid, but it's what works for them, apparently.

Doesn't make it any less shitty.

Fuck. I just had a revelation.

Life is unfair.

Wow.

And it's wrong to understand how and why?

Nope. It's just a little weird that you seem to need to have it so blatantly spelled out for you.

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Nope. It's just a little weird that you seem to need to have it so blatantly spelled out for you.

Ok. Let's go with that.

PendragonGirl wrote:

Fine, you've got a point there.

Batman has a huge rogues gallery, though. Why not choose another villain who is white? There are plenty.

I'm guessing two things.

First, maybe Nolan couldn't find a different villain or villainous organisation that would tie the first and third film together.

Second, Nolan's going for a realistic style with his Batman trilogy. You can see that from the designs of the Batmobile and the Batplane and how he shows where Bruce got all that stuff to begin with. He chooses Ra's al-Ghul for his villain but leaves out Lazarus pits. His Joker is a psychopath in clown makeup as opposed to a psychopath who fell in some chemicals that coincidentally made him look like a clown. His Bane isn't powered by special venom. Maybe the Penguin and the Riddler were too cartoony, maybe Poison Ivy, Killer Croc and Mr. Freeze were too sci-fi.


Incidentally, this will always be canon Harvey Dent to me:

Jay/Cris wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

PendragonGirl wrote:

Fine, you've got a point there.

Batman has a huge rogues gallery, though. Why not choose another villain who is white? There are plenty.

Scarecrow.

Scarecrow was the villain of Batman Begins and actually made a cameo in this movie. Also, clamoring for a white villain while also calling for additional non-white heroes sounds... off, people.

You're missing the point. I'm not asking for a white villain.

I'm just asking Nolan not to whitewash POC characters in order to fit his vision.

Use an existing white antagonist if you want to have most of the main characters be Caucasian. There's already so few POC in the media.

Look, I know I'm basically talking to a brick wall here. It's not like anything we say on an internet forum is going to have any impact. For instance, Marvel Studios is already releasing an Ant Man (you know, the dude who beats up his wife and can talk to insects) movie and a film starring a mutant raccoon before giving the lead to a woman (Black Widow, Captain Marvel) or a minority (T'Challa/Black Panther).

The superhero genre ignores women and minorities, and whitewashes fascinating POC characters to make them "available" to general audiences. It's just the way it is.

PendragonGirl wrote:

You're missing the point. I'm not asking for a white villain.

I'm just asking Nolan not to whitewash POC characters in order to fit his vision.

And it must be asked again, what whitewashing? Bane has always been portrayed as having indeterminate ethnicity. Ras and Talia have always been portrayed as "White people with funny accents." Hell, you can justify making the Al-Ghuls firmly European by teh idea that you wanted to duck the unfortunate implications of a couple of (vaguely) Arabic characters being the ringleaders of a terror organization

Again: just not seeing the issue..

Freezer wrote:

PendragonGirl wrote:

You're missing the point. I'm not asking for a white villain.

I'm just asking Nolan not to whitewash POC characters in order to fit his vision.

And it must be asked again, what whitewashing? Bane has always been portrayed as having indeterminate ethnicity. Ras and Talia have always been portrayed as "White people with funny accents." Hell, you can justify making the Al-Ghuls firmly European by teh idea that you wanted to duck the unfortunate implications of a couple of (vaguely) Arabic characters being the ringleaders of a terror organization

Again: just not seeing the issue..

Ra's is arabic. I believe the full origin currently in use (at least I think currently since I haven't heard different from the New 52) can be found in the Ressurection of Ra's al Ghul arc.

Talia's mother, Melisande, was poly-racial though. So Talia might have some white ancestry somewhere in there, I guess. I'll give you that.

Gumball wrote:

Yeah. But why in the world does whiter=better seem to have developed the world over?

Except in America, where girls will pay for skin cancer and a tan.

Just because everyone in Germany is pasty white because the sun isn't allowed to shine there because you lost WW2 doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't tan.

grmbljfx wrote:

But there is the little fact that even in Bollywood movies they go for fair-skinned actors and actresses, not the shade of skin color that would actually represent the majority of the population. A lot of actors apparently are half-white. Icky brown people play villains, and skin bleaching creams are an "exploding market" (advertised for by light-skinned actors). So even Bollywood movies are "whitewashed", quite literally. What do you make of that?

I didn't know that. In all the Bollywood movies I've seen, the cast looked pretty damn Indian to me. This may not make Bollywood the best example, but it does, you know, exemplify that studios (no matter the country) cater to the idealized norm of their target audience. Which, in the case of Bollywood, is Indian, but the right, pale kind of Indian.[/quote]

Light skin is the ideal in India, at least among some people. I had a friend in college whose family was from India (Brahmin caste), and she was firmly convinced that she was unattractive because she had dark skin. I thought that was ridiculous and said so, so she told me I didn't understand because I have light skin and am therefore beautiful, and because I just didn't understand India. I admit I don't know much about the culture(s) of India, but this whole business of "light is beautiful, dark is ugly" didn't make sense then and still doesn't. I have family members of many ethnic backgrounds and skintones, so I never learned to discriminate based on color, and I thought my friend was pretty and told her so, but she simply didn't believe that she could be attractive with dark skin.

PendragonGirl wrote:

Jay/Cris wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

PendragonGirl wrote:

Fine, you've got a point there.

Batman has a huge rogues gallery, though. Why not choose another villain who is white? There are plenty.

Scarecrow.

Scarecrow was the villain of Batman Begins and actually made a cameo in this movie. Also, clamoring for a white villain while also calling for additional non-white heroes sounds... off, people.

You're missing the point. I'm not asking for a white villain.

I'm just asking Nolan not to whitewash POC characters in order to fit his vision.

Use an existing white antagonist if you want to have most of the main characters be Caucasian. There's already so few POC in the media.

Look, I know I'm basically talking to a brick wall here. It's not like anything we say on an internet forum is going to have any impact. For instance, Marvel Studios is already releasing an Ant Man (you know, the dude who beats up his wife and can talk to insects) movie and a film starring a mutant raccoon before giving the lead to a woman (Black Widow, Captain Marvel) or a minority (T'Challa/Black Panther).

The superhero genre ignores women and minorities, and whitewashes fascinating POC characters to make them "available" to general audiences. It's just the way it is.

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Cause Blade was so shitty it spawned two sequels and single-handedly revitalized the Marvel superhero movies which previously were non-existent... or we wished they were, re: Dolph Lundgren's Punisher and Roger Corman's Fantastic Four.

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And Nick Fury was so awful in the Avengers, only heading up arguably the most important & secretive organization in the United States, responsible for forming the Avengers (in the movie-verse anyway).

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Frozone was also terrible in The Incredibles, being the only other main heroic character other than the family which the movie was about. He totally wasn't instrumental in defeating the villain.

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Storm was also not summoning tornadoes and blowing shit the hell up in X-Men, nor portrayed as a competent leader and pilot in the second movie. (Ok, the first one I can't forgive Halle that awful accent, I'm sorry, that was just bad.)

My point is that POC characters in the superhero genre are out there. They aren't in the majority, sorry, it is America and god forbid any have the lead, but that is changing, if slowly. And hell, Blade was the lead in his, and like I was sarcastically pointing out, that movie franchise single-handedly revitalized Marvel movies, paving the way for X-Men, Thor, Captain America, The Avengers, Spiderman, and so on. What's more, for the most part, POC characters are often the rock of the team, or play a vital role, if not pivotal. They are portrayed in a positive light which compared to the blaxploitation movies of the 70's is a huuuuuuuge leap forward.

As for Ra's al Ghul being whitewashed...here, the producers are in a pickle. If they portray his ethnicity correctly, then that would be offensive to some people because he's a villain, Arabic, and planning to commit genocide. If they do not, then it is offensive for whitewashing. Personally, in the Nolan movies, I think they just cast Liam Neeson because it's Liam Neeson and they wanted a big name. That's it.

Lady Anne wrote:

I thought that was ridiculous and said so, so she told me I didn't understand because I have light skin and am therefore beautiful,

I don't think she understood that cows aren't held in as high regard in America as they are in India.

Get it?

IT'S A FAT JOKE

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

I thought that was ridiculous and said so, so she told me I didn't understand because I have light skin and am therefore beautiful,

I don't think she understood that cows aren't held in as high regard in America as they are in India.

Get it?

IT'S A FAT JOKE

Actually, I'm a saber-toothed tiger. And you're a Chihuahua. Sorry, Mikey, but it'll never work between us, tasty morsel though you might be.