Virginia Republicans Thank Soviet Communists Instead of US Vets

zeke wrote:

Here's a link that I don't agree with totally, but still it does contain some actual facts and logic instead of the usual BS.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hmm...

Quote :

There were 353,000 executions in 1937 and 239,000 in 1938. Over 140,000 people died during the deportation of minority nationalities between 1944 and 1948.

On top of this, the numbers of people in the 'gulag' of prisons and labour camps rose from 2.5 million in 1933 to 5.5 million in 1953, with a death rate in the camps of five to nine times that among the free population - implying perhaps two million deaths caused by ill-treatment and neglect over a 25 year period. Finally, the famine that was a result of collectivisation in the Ukraine and Kazakhstan led to up to 5 million further deaths. But the discussion also leads to two other conclusions.

This doesn't even begin to take into account the fact that Stalin was more efficient at killing political prisoners by simply having the Germans do it for him, by sending them out to trample minefields and absorb machinegun fire.

Also:

Quote :

The oppression of the national minorities by Stalinism was vicious. A quarter of the Chechens and other nationalities who were deported from the Caucasus to central Asia in 1944-45 died.

That's from your own link.

The second one is completely worthless "Nuh-uh!" bullshit from Communists.

Reepicheep-chan wrote:

Penguin wrote:

zeke wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

zeke wrote:

and also there was the horrendous Soviet death toll.

You mean like how Stalin put more of his own people to death than Hitler?

No. Because that is an absurd lie of course. Although Stalin did launch repression that was mis-directed and killed innocent people. But nothing anywhere like the 20 million killed by Hitler.

Remember, kids: With Communism, it's not genocide. It's a wee oopsie.

Look, I am not going to apologize for Stalin, but that is not what zeke said at all.

zeke wrote:

Although Stalin did launch repression that was mis-directed and killed innocent people.

Penguin wrote:

Reepicheep-chan wrote:

Penguin wrote:

zeke wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

zeke wrote:

and also there was the horrendous Soviet death toll.

You mean like how Stalin put more of his own people to death than Hitler?

No. Because that is an absurd lie of course. Although Stalin did launch repression that was mis-directed and killed innocent people. But nothing anywhere like the 20 million killed by Hitler.

Remember, kids: With Communism, it's not genocide. It's a wee oopsie.

Look, I am not going to apologize for Stalin, but that is not what zeke said at all.

zeke wrote:

Although Stalin did launch repression that was mis-directed and killed innocent people.

Read carefully. DOOBIE said that Stalin PUT more people to death than Hitler. ZEKE said that millions of those people were not PUT to death, THEREFORE Doobie was wrong. Are you really going to argue that 5 million people dying of a famine is the same thing as 10 million people dying in death camps?

Fucking repression, how does it work?

Oh, gee, I am sorry Penguin. I must be confused by all those "Communists are worse than Nazis" people who continue to include the famine figures in their counts of "repression" deaths. I completely missed what you were actually objecting to.

Let me try this again:

Mr. Doobie: Stalin killed more of his own guys than ~HITLER~
zeke: Stalin killed, like, a couple million of his own guys and Hitler killed, like, 20 million. Kind of not the same thing.
You: WAIT A MINUTE! STALIN KILLED A COUPLE MILLION OF HIS OWN GUYS. Youadmittedityouadittedit lalalalalala

Is that closer to the truth, or am I still mis-understanding your argument?

I'm not harping on this point to try and further Doobie's argument. It's just that zeke consistently does this when it comes to defending the atrocities of Communist regimes (he did this when we were discussing Mao in another thread, remember?) : It was mis-directed, it was a mistake, etc. Now, as they say, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence, but... come the fuck on.

Also implied by "silly communists made an oopsie argument" in this thread: Legitimate targets for repression.

As for how many people Stalin had put to death, the thing is, nobody actually knows. No one. Stalin was notorious for changing history to suit his needs. He didn't execute people. He made it so they never existed at all. We've all seen the photographs, and the men he had erased from them because they, at some point or another, "betrayed" him. And I use betrayed very loosely here. The man was paranoid to the point of having a disorder. He saw conspiracy everywhere. How many people died because of him, or his regime, and were just erased?

I don't think there's much of a difference between Hitler and Stalin. They were both paranoid dictators who committed massacres. Is one suddenly better than the other because one left a few alive? No, not at all. It gives me great joy to think of how Stalin died: alone and in pain. Or possibly poisoned by his own people. Either way, he deserved every second of agony he suffered.

My family is Czech-Roma. Either Hitler was going to put them in a death camp, or Stalin was. Far as I'm concerned, there's no difference worth noting.


And seriously, who gives enough of a fuck about communism to repress them? I thought we got over that about thirty years ago.

Penguin wrote:

I'm not harping on this point to try and further Doobie's argument. It's just that zeke consistently does this when it comes to defending the atrocities of Communist regimes (he did this when we were discussing Mao in another thread, remember?) : It was mis-directed, it was a mistake, etc. Now, as they say, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence, but... come the fuck on.

Fair enough.

Lapin wrote:

And seriously, who gives enough of a fuck about communism to repress them? I thought we got over that about thirty years ago.

Haha, what? Do you live in some other alternate US where Obama has not been repeatedly accused of being an evil pinko, an argument which was WIDELY used to shoot down the very idea of any kind of health reform under his presidency and ultimately lead to said reform not effecting any kind of real change at all. Because God forbid we be anything like those commie Brits, amirite?

Seriously, people use "communism is evil" to discount socialist government policies ALL THE TIME.

Quote :

Read carefully. DOOBIE said that Stalin PUT more people to death than Hitler. ZEKE said that millions of those people were not PUT to death, THEREFORE Doobie was wrong.

... you're honestly trusting his sources?

Quote :

As for how many people Stalin had put to death, the thing is, nobody actually knows. No one. Stalin was notorious for changing history to suit his needs. He didn't execute people. He made it so they never existed at all. We've all seen the photographs, and the men he had erased from them because they, at some point or another, "betrayed" him. And I use betrayed very loosely here. The man was paranoid to the point of having a disorder. He saw conspiracy everywhere. How many people died because of him, or his regime, and were just erased?

This is true and we could debate this and many more points forever, but it doesn't change the fact that Stalin was a shitty fucking leader.

I seem to remember reading something that Stalin had a son that was in Auschwitz, that he refused to trade out for a general, his son was a corporal. I Remember reading stalin saying something along the lines of "I refuse to trade a general for a corporal." I think it was in the Red Files or some crazy shit like that.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

Read carefully. DOOBIE said that Stalin PUT more people to death than Hitler. ZEKE said that millions of those people were not PUT to death, THEREFORE Doobie was wrong.

... you're honestly trusting his sources?

Should I trust yours? What are they?

(the non-answering-a-question-with-a-question response is "no, dumbass, I have my own fucking sources and you are still wrong")

Quote :

it doesn't change the fact that Stalin was a shitty fucking leader.

Oh man, I sure am glad we established that, because I was sort of uncertain! That really is a completely relevant thing to bring up as a response to the OBVIOUS COMMIE LIE that the Soviet army did more to fight Hitler than the US did. Whatever is zeke going on about when he says that people use the OBVIOUSLY IRREFUTABLY FACTUALLY PROVEN statement that Stalin was, indeed, worse than Hitler as a method of shooting down the idea that communism could ever be a valid form of government? That fact that saying "STALIN KILLZ" is a sure-fire method of keeping communism out of any open-minded discussion of economic policy is just a serendipitous accident!

Quote :

Should I trust yours? What are they?

(the non-answering-a-question-with-a-question response is "no, dumbass, I have my own fucking sources and you are still wrong")

I dunno. What sources should I use. As Lapin said, it's hard to come across any solid statistics when it comes to the Stalin death count. Not only that, but do we count all those who died of famine? All those Stalin sent on dangerous missions during WWII knowing they were likely not to come back alive?

Yes, saying Stalin is worse than Hitler was a dumb comment.

But I'm not going to trust sources coming from "The Socialist Review" at face value. I will read both the articles, and maybe I'll learn something, but at the same time it doesn't make what Stalin did any better.

Quote :

Oh man, I sure am glad we established that, because I was sort of uncertain! That really is a completely relevant thing to bring up as a response to the OBVIOUS COMMIE LIE

Don't turn me into some commie-hunting strawman.

Quote :

hat really is a completely relevant thing to bring up as a response to the OBVIOUS COMMIE LIE that the Soviet army did more to fight Hitler than the US did.

Did I dispute that?

Quote :

Whatever is zeke going on about when he says that people use the OBVIOUSLY IRREFUTABLY FACTUALLY PROVEN statement that Stalin was, indeed, worse than Hitler as a method of shooting down the idea that communism could ever be a valid form of government?

I never said communism would never be valid. In fact, I never said anything about communism's validity.

I'm annoyed by the seemingly rosy view zeke seems to take when it comes to communist leaders like Josef Stalin, brushing aside the very real human rights abuses they've committed. Capitalism is responsible for human rights abuses too? Yes. Yes it is. Just ask the child sweat shop worker in a third world country that stitches your shoes together. But that doesn't make Mao Zedong or Josef Stalin any better.

Quote :

That fact that saying "STALIN KILLZ" is a sure-fire method of keeping communism out of any open-minded discussion of economic policy is just a serendipitous accident!

When were we ever discussing economics? At all?

The Cold War ended a couple of decades ago. The Cold Wank, on the other hand, is going strong.

maybe they just meant that like

in a way we're like

all u.s. veterans man

i mean we're like

one people

you dig

Penguin wrote:

Remember, kids: With Communism, it's not genocide. It's a wee oopsie.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Lapin wrote:

My family is Czech-Roma. Either Hitler was going to put them in a death camp, or Stalin was. Far as I'm concerned, there's no difference worth noting.

My family is German-Roma. The Nazi's had a racial ideology that lead to death camps where the mass extermination of Jews AND Roma (Gypsies) was carried out as a systemic program. Soviet ideology was at the other end of the spectrum. And that is a difference way worth noting.

Seule wrote:

maybe they just meant that like

in a way we're like

all u.s. veterans man

i mean we're like

one people

you dig

well, i like your cat!

[quote="Mr.Doobie"]

Quote :

But I'm not going to trust sources coming from "The Socialist Review" at face value. I will read both the articles, and maybe I'll learn something, but at the same time it doesn't make what Stalin did any better.

I'm annoyed by the seemingly rosy view zeke seems to take when it comes to communist leaders like Josef Stalin, brushing aside the very real human rights abuses they've committed. Capitalism is responsible for human rights abuses too? Yes. Yes it is. Just ask the child sweat shop worker in a third world country that stitches your shoes together. But that doesn't make Mao Zedong or Josef Stalin any better.

I respect what you are saying here and even tho we don't fully agree I think you make some good points at times.

zeke wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Remember, kids: With Communism, it's not genocide. It's a wee oopsie.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Oh hey, a complete non sequitur. Why hello there, irrelevance!

Penguin wrote:

zeke wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Remember, kids: With Communism, it's not genocide. It's a wee oopsie.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Oh hey, a complete non sequitur. Why hello there, irrelevance!

Penguin, come on. That quote is entirely relevant. The gist of your comment was that genocide gets downplayed when supporting Communism, but it gets downplayed when supporting any political/ideological cause, as zeke evidenced. I get that you're taking the piss, but this is stupid.

Also, why does it feel like there's an epidemic of reading comprehension fail on this board lately?

Edit: Actually, not an epidemic. Looks like it's just certain people. Maybe it's genetic.

zeke wrote:

Lapin wrote:

My family is Czech-Roma. Either Hitler was going to put them in a death camp, or Stalin was. Far as I'm concerned, there's no difference worth noting.

My family is German-Roma. The Nazi's had a racial ideology that lead to death camps where the mass extermination of Jews AND Roma (Gypsies) was carried out as a systemic program. Soviet ideology was at the other end of the spectrum. And that is a difference way worth noting.

Are you kidding me.

I can't even.

Okay, no. I just said, my Roma family was going to be put in a death camp. Don't repeat back to me what I just said like you're bestowing some great wisdom on me.

And yes, the Soviets murdered the Czech and the Roma. The population of the country was in their way, and they were going to die, either through extermination or labor camps. The population of Roma in Czechoslovakia was in the hundred thousands before Hitler stomped in. By the time he was gone, it was around ten thousand. After the war entirely, and the Soviets were done? There weren't enough left to count as even a percentage of the population. The Roma have been kicked around by everyone. What difference does it make why they were doing it? Stalin thought the Roma were just as inferior as Hitler did, and he didn't want them polluting his precious bloodlines.

Owlish wrote:

Penguin, come on. That quote is entirely relevant. The gist of your comment was that genocide gets downplayed when supporting Communism, but it gets downplayed when supporting any political/ideological cause, as zeke evidenced.

No. The gist is that zeke writes genocide off as an accident when supporting Communism, and his response to being called on it is "b-b-but Murrca!" This is every bit as relevant as responding to "Hey, you shot my dog!" with "End the violence in Darfur!"

That is, it's totally not relevant at all.

zeke wrote:

Soviet ideology was at the other end of the spectrum. And that is a difference way worth noting.

So? That doesn't make it any better than Stalin after he came to power committed atrocities just like Hitler had.

Reidmar wrote:

zeke wrote:

Soviet ideology was at the other end of the spectrum. And that is a difference way worth noting.

So? That doesn't make it any better than Stalin after he came to power committed atrocities just like Hitler had.

I was reading Wikipedia yesterday, and the thing about Stalin is that, even after all these years, the Soviet Union has no idea how many people he actually killed. They can come in with a guestimate, but the fact of the matter is that most of his victims just disappeared and were never seen again. There are literally tens of thousands of people who went missing during his reign, and no one has any idea what happened to them, because, of course, all the paperwork disappeared (if it ever existed in the first place).

Stalin worked with the Allies for one reason-he no more wanted to see Hitler take over Europe than anyone else did. Once the war was over, so was the party, and it was go away you Democratic and Monarchist bastards; I'll run my country the way I want. Which lead to the Cold War, and the deaths of who knows how many people under a regime where everyone spied on everyone else to curry favor with the local Wardens, and the wrong word could get you a bullet through the head or a one-way trip to Siberia.

The fact he didn't kill any of these people personally doesn't absolve him of their deaths. Hitler likely didn't kill any of the Jews (or Poles, or Roma, or French, or Americans, or English, or his own people who didn't agree with him) personally either. But he gave the orders, and they're just as dead as if he'd shot them himself.

Lady Anne wrote:

The Cold War ended a couple of decades ago. The Cold Wank, on the other hand, is going strong.

-applauds-

Penguin wrote:

No. The gist is that zeke writes genocide off as an accident when supporting Communism, and his response to being called on it is "b-b-but Murrca!" This is every bit as relevant as responding to "Hey, you shot my dog!" with "End the violence in Darfur!"

That is, it's totally not relevant at all.

Ok, I don't see where zeke is writing off genocide as "an accident" or "a mistake," in this thread or in any other. He has tried to deflect the focus from Communist genocide to more current examples of genocide, which I think is an inane response--to an inane accusation. After all, a favored pastime of America's conservatives is to pound the table and shout "COMMUNISM KILLZ" and throw down everything in the book about why America should never ever be like Soviet Russia...and ignore the fact that the two are pretty gosh darn similar already. Both nation-states have committed extensive atrocities and tried to defend them with political ideology. So, totally relevant.

Hell, the average Tea Partier will likely tell you that Hitler was Communist, so...

Reidmar wrote:

zeke wrote:

Soviet ideology was at the other end of the spectrum. And that is a difference way worth noting.

So? That doesn't make it any better than Stalin after he came to power committed atrocities just like Hitler had.

Did you forget a word in there somewhere? Anyway, zeke didn't say it made one any better than the other, or any worse than the other. All zeke said was that the difference is worth noting, which it absolutely is. You're trying to reduce two highly complex regimes down to body counts, and that's ridiculous.

It doesn't matter who killed more people, or who committed more genocide, or whatever. What matters is that both were brutal, repressive regimes; both Hitler and Stalin were miserable fucking cumstains on the dirty drawers of humanity, and they both wiped their asses with philosophical manifestos. This fucking pissing contest over who's the bigger cumstain is simply that--a fucking pissing contest with no real purpose or value. Other than, you know, waving your pedant flags and "mah research! let me show you itz!" What is significant is why they brutalized so many people, so it doesn't fucking happen again.

Goddammit now I'm defending the communist troll.