11-Year-Old Gang-Raped. NYT posts controversial article about it.

Just Chipper wrote:

Shut up, Alhazred.

edit: look at this fucking page 2 "shut up" snype

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

karmyn31 wrote:

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

...THE FUCK IS THIS?!

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"I did not come here this evening to jump on an 11-year-old girl," he said.

Stay classy, you absolute douchenozzle.

[quote="TheHedonist"]

I never said this:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Also: Hedonist, can you explain in your next post why exactly you don't believe in rape culture and why you don't think this article exemplifies rape culture. I'm honestly curious about how you don't seem to understand such an obvious example of rape culture.

I'm sorry I misrepresented your point of view. I wasn't trying to attack you, I was actually trying to see your full thoughts on this and get you to explain it in a more detailed post. My bad.

I actually like and respect you, though. You have a dissenting viewpoint that isn't based on being willfully dense and characterizing your opponents as man-hating, mouth frothing strawwymmyn.

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Except, well, she was raped at least partially because she was unsupervised. If her mother had been a more attentive parent she would not have been allowed to wander off and get herself into such a horrible situation. I don't see why blaming the perpetrators and acknowledging the fact that this wouldn't have happened had she been under the appropriate adult supervision are mutually exclusive.

My problem is the fact that the article exclusively explored what all the victim and her family could do to prevent what happened, practically ignoring the actually rapists and their families.

As to, does all Western Culture have rape culture, I believe the answer is yes. As I said on page 1, rape culture isn't just some slope-browed, knuckle dragging redneck, it's a lot more subtle things that are all over society.

Why's people blaming the mother? Acting as if she's a lousy parent because her daughter got raped. I broke my foot in an epiliptic fit but I don't blame my mother for letting me step outside the front door at that time of night.

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Alhazred wrote:

No, I just don't take the so-called feminists on the board seriously.

No, it's just all you have are insults.

Keep telling yourself that while you do nothing but try to will reality into being something it's not, and while Just Chipper answers me with nothing even resembling an argument. Hmm, more double standards...

Come to think of it, it's also rather interesting that I've made worse and much more childish insults at Cy, at random, without attracting nearly this much butthurt over it. Suddenly it's offensive because there's an argument involved.

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Yet you were the one who started this argument.

No, I didn't.

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You continue to insist that everyone who disagrees with you just isn't seeing things clearly and is crazy and/or has ulterior motives.

No, I'm continuing to insist that the part of the board talking about rape culture is a nut brigade wanking over absurd generalizations, wishful thinking and an extremely black and white worldview.

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In your first post on the matter, you implied that part of the responsibility for rape happening lies with the victim. So you really don't agree with me, because I believe that full responsibility for rape lies with the rapist.

You said this:

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Because the victim's parents shouldn't be the main issue. The way the victim dressed and acted shouldn't be the issue.

I agree with this statement. The key word in this statement, however, is "shouldn't."

"Shouldn't" and "reality" are often two different things. The former does not always change the latter. It certainly doesn't in rape, where whether or not a rapist should have raped someone doesn't influence their decision to do so.

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In your first post on the matter, you implied that part of the responsibility for rape happening lies with the victim.

No, I didn't. I've never implied any such thing. I've outright said, however, that any victim may have had preventive measures available to them (for the millionth time, responsible parenting would've stopped this from happening. You can wank all you want about everything else, but if the 11-year old's mother had actually been supervising her, and not letting her out of sight for hours of a time, and kept track of who she was associating with so she could stop her from associating with men twice her age, which any responsible parent would do, this wouldn't have happened. Responsible parents would not look at a situation like this and think "since it falls on the men not to rape, I can trust them not to rape.")

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So you really don't agree with me, because I believe that full responsibility for rape lies with the rapist.

And that is retarded, because rapists don't give a flying fuck. You keep retreating on the notion that most rapes don't involve obvious rapists, but the fact that this case alone could've been prevented by something other than the rapists deciding not to rape because it would be wrong disproves the notion that the problem is that black and white.

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It isn't just shouldn't. It's not an issue. It's not about what the victim was wearing or what time of night she was up or what streets she was walking down, it's about the rapist who raped her.

Flat-out wrong, because while it shouldn't be an issue, it often is an issue. It's an issue if a rapist saw a woman in naughty nightware and couldn't control himself. It's an issue if a rapist picked the first target with a vagina he saw and uses her clothes as an excuse when caught. It's an issue when a rapist rapes someone because they have easy access to that person socially, because somewhere else, the first two rapists still exist.

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but I'm saying preventive measures aren't going to help,

And you're wrong, because this is a gross over-generalization. You're actively refusing to look at every case individually and consider the factors therein while parroting that the same set of rules should apply to all cases regardless of variables. This very case alone proves that there is a possible circumstance for a rape to have been prevented by something other than the rapists adhering to morals.

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and that placing rape prevention emphasis on the victim

Oh look, you don't understand my argument at all, as this is not and has never been my argument. My argument has been that the variables between cases of rape make it more complicated than "rapists shouldn't rape," and depending on those variables, preventive measures can, in some cases, stop rape.

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For someone who's always complaining about being made into a strawman and having everyone completely misrepresent their posts, you sure do enjoy making your opponents strawmen and/or misrepresenting their posts.

This does not at all address the double-standard I was pointing at out.

As for the strawman accusation: You're applying extreme tunnel-vision and generalization to a topic that in reality is complex and not easy to break down into neat chunks. When confronted on this your sole argument is to insist that the neat chunks work fine despite all indications in reality otherwise. I don't need to make you a strawman, you are a strawman.

For that matter, you're doing to me what you're accusing me of; every time I actually point to a specific argument and make a counter-argument, you don't actually respond, you just repeat the same generalizations I'm arguing against in the first place and cite it as an example of how I "obviously" don't know what I'm talking about without even attempting to explain why.

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I love the assumption that

A: I'm a woman

Don't care.

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B: I have a victim complex

Seems that way.

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C: I 'jumped down the throat' of TheHedonist despite being calm and measured in my response

Didn't sound like that when I read it.

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E: Everyone who disagrees with Alhazred is crazy

And again, no matter how much of an argument I put together and how many examples I point out to back it up, it's summarily dismissed with a poor excuse or simply repeating the exact same thing I was arguing against with no change and no attempt to back it up. This is why it seems like you have a victim complex.

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It's all so wonderfully flawed. Just because I didn't put up statistics on the cases I've seen doesn't mean I'm not allowed to see trends, dude.

It does mean that I have every right to dismiss the trends you supposedly see as biased opinion, dude.

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Also, "so-called feminists"? Fuck that. People who stand up for women and try to see things from their point of view and do their best to ensure that they are not blamed for being raped are feminists. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them un-feminist.

Oh look, more strawman directed at me. Because I believe it's possible for preventive measures to work in some cases, I believe women should be blamed for being raped and this is thus my reasoning for calling the so-called feminists here "so called?" What?

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Agreed, I was the one who was bitchy there and I admitted to and apologized for it. I don't even know where you got that claim, Al.

Sorry, I didn't re-read the entire thread. It was the impression I got from the first few posts.

karmyn31 wrote:

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

*foams at the mouth at just how many levels of wrong that article is*

bleachedblackcat wrote:

karmyn31 wrote:

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

*foams at the mouth at just how many levels of wrong that article is*

Yeah... I read that and I'm like... I can't. Christ, man. I can't wrap my head around that.

Ok ok, guys. Al, Doob, wait.

The problem with this article is it's tone. It focuses exclusively on one side of the issue- the fact that she was out dressed naughtily and it is her mother exclusively that it to blame. That is the picture it paints. And this is an injustice.

Now, nowhere has anyone said- ever said, that I have seen-that children should be left unsupervised because in the ideal world that obviously does not exist, no one would rape them. However, assuming these two camps right now are "Potential victims shoudn't put themselves in danger." and "Rapists should know better.", when an article is presented completely in the language and blame sphere of the former, the latter will present itself forcibly and singlemindedly as well.

Why? Because they mean different things. The problem is that the former seems more "realistic" than another, because in the world we live in now, "Rapists gonna rape and haters gonna hate" is the gospel truth to many. The fact of the matter is, as long as this is the prevailing ideation, nothing will change. Rapists will rape and haters will hate.

The fact is that when people fight for the latter view to prevail, they're fighting for reformation of the world view and a possible prevention of rape, not avoidance. It aknowledges the blame of the rapist and it stirs the pot to try to understand how a rapist can do what they do and how to keep it from happening. When the former ideation prevails, rape is merely avoided by restricting oneself- something one should not have to do, and that if restriction is not adhered to, they are blamed for it, generally in its entirety. The "why" for the rape is questioned of the victim, not of the perpetrator.

The point I'm attempting to make is that when someone is raped, they should not have to here, "well, you shouldn't have been there." because that isn't true- they had a right to be there and not be raped. However, caution never hurt anyone. See what I mean?

It's like getting mugged. Muggers shouldn't mug, but one should be careful. But just because you should be careful, it doesn't mean it's your fault you were mugged.

Also, Al seriously? Rage? LOL

Fight one side and the other side will fight back just as hard.

so hay if we're going to talk about OMG WHERE WAS HER MOTHER

what about the mothers and fathers of the men and boys involved

bang up job they did there raising rapists amirite

karmyn31 wrote:

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

So is Angie Woods.

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"She lied about her age. Them boys didn't rape her. She wanted this to happen. I'm not taking nobody's side, but if she hadn't put herself in that predicament, this would have never happened," said Angie Woods,

Dear. Fucking. God.

Maximilia wrote:

bleachedblackcat wrote:

karmyn31 wrote:

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Let me just say that I think Quannell X is evil.

*foams at the mouth at just how many levels of wrong that article is*

Yeah... I read that and I'm like... I can't. Christ, man. I can't wrap my head around that.

Yes: some of the people in that article are an example of the point and how to miss it.

I mean, even if they were right that she 'asked for it' or 'wanted it' (which strikes me as unlikely in the extreme) it doesn't alter the fact that she is eleven. At that age she cannot consent. Whether she 'asked for it' or not is an irrelevance. She is eleven.

Other bottom line: people should not rape other people no matter what their age, occupation, mental condition, state of dress, amount they've had to drink, the time of night (or day), sex, whether their behaviour is considered to be stupid, the street they're on or any other damn thing anyone can come up with to explain reprehensible behaviour. People are responsible for what they do to others.

Jesus wrote:

It's like getting mugged. Muggers shouldn't mug, but one should be careful. But just because you should be careful, it doesn't mean it's your fault you were mugged.

QFT.

SHUT YOUR FUCKING ASSES UP ABOUT 'BUT WHERE WERE HER PARENTS' LIKE RIGHT NOW.

Hyper-sexualization is often a symptom of sexual abuse in children. It is very likely her parents did not give a shit, and/or she was being sexually abused. Who should take the blame now that there is a possibility that she is living in an abusive home? The girl herself, or the boys who raped her?

Taking blame away from the perps is still victim blaming. There is no fucking way to prepare yourselves for rape. You wouldn't carry a weapon, that will only give your rapist something to farther hurt you with. Who (according to rape culture) gets the blame when a rape victim is stab with her knife? The victim, the stupid whore shouldn't have had it. She should have known she would be stab with her own knife. But if she didn't have a knife, she would still be blamed for not protecting herself. WOMEN CANNOT WIN. EVER.

There is a huge difference between flaunting an expensive necklace and having it stolen and being raped. One's is a material item and the other is someone's personhood. Some women may see their rape as being theft, but it's their bodies, not yours so shut the fuck up.

Rape culture nay-sayers you are a part of rape culture. What do you have to say about that?

Alhazred wrote:

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Right, the only people who are victims are the ones who let themselves be. You hear that, ladies, you're the world's whipping boy because you allow yourselves to be abused and ignored.

Nowhere did I say that. Absolutely nowhere.

I want to know how denying reality helps any woman, or any minority, right now. What does "it should be like this" accomplish when pro-active deterrence against people who don't care what it should be like can prevent something like this incident?

If I went by your response, I could only assume women are completely irrational and incapable of decision-making based on anything other than wishful thinking. Fortunately, I don't tend to jump to conclusions based on assumptions.

The thing is, the issue here isn't discussing which preventative measures are appropriate. Potential victims and/or their families can indeed take preventative measures that they find appropriate; they do have still that option (however, to someone who is deeply immersed in rape myths, nothing will ever be enough to avoid victim-blaming discussion afterwards; you could have a three-year-old dressed like a nun and protected at all times by a dozen armed body guards get gang-raped by a mob of hundreds, and there would still be a great deal of discussion focusing on how the victim should have done something different).

The issue is whether a newspaper article in a major publication that is read nation-wide and should theoretically be unbiased should spend a lot of time dwelling on what the victim should have done (as if they at least semi-blame the victim) while simultaneously acting as if the rapists have been tricked in some way and as if the newspaper feels sorry for them.

And the issue is also whether an article that neatly hits all the central myths of rape culture in any way means that rape culture exists.

The issue is not whether potential victims should be doing this thing or that thing. It is not about whether there should be plenty of education about the types of situations that can be dangerous. It is not about wishful thinking or trying to force women to be passive about rape risks because doing anything perpetuates rape culture or some nonsense like that.

It is about perpetuating (or not) types of discussion that make rape victims feel like shit, promote the myths, and make it easier for rapists to get soft punishments or none at all.

And of course a place with a strong rape culture would not think that anything bad would happen from an elementary-school child spending time along with many much-older boys. One of the biggest rape myths is that rape doesn't happen to good girls and that rapists are monsters/outsiders who are pretty damn obvious at first sight, instead of being your neighbor's kids who act fairly normally. If you believed those things, then you wouldn't see a problem.

Alhazred wrote:

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Also, "so-called feminists"? Fuck that. People who stand up for women and try to see things from their point of view and do their best to ensure that they are not blamed for being raped are feminists. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them un-feminist.

Oh look, more strawman directed at me. Because I believe it's possible for preventive measures to work in some cases, I believe women should be blamed for being raped and this is thus my reasoning for calling the so-called feminists here "so called?" What?

Ugh, then what is your fucking reasoning? Enlighten me. Because from what I can see, you're just calling them un-feminist because you have a disagreement.
Also, fuck your armchair psychology. That's the extent of my opinions on this 'victim complex' bullshit.

TheHedonist wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

TheHedonist, the reason "OMG WHERE WAS HER MOTHER WHY WOULD YOU LET YOUR ELEVEN YEAR OLD WANDER OFF FOR HOURS" pisses me off is that it's treating rape like an accident, like falling into a pool of water and drowning. It removes the perpetrators from the equation. She wasn't gang-raped because she was unsupervised.

Except, well, she was raped at least partially because she was unsupervised. If her mother had been a more attentive parent she would not have been allowed to wander off and get herself into such a horrible situation. I don't see why blaming the perpetrators and acknowledging the fact that this wouldn't have happened had she been under the appropriate adult supervision are mutually exclusive.

The fact that her parents were irresponsible is a separate issue. This is NOT the place to be worrying about that.

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Cyberwulf wrote:

She was gang-raped because a bunch of assfaced shitsuckers decided to rape her. That they didn't kidnap her (at first) counts for absolutely nothing with me. The fact that she "dressed older" is irrelevant. If she was 22 it would be irrelevant.

All of this I agree with.

I never said this:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Also: Hedonist, can you explain in your next post why exactly you don't believe in rape culture and why you don't think this article exemplifies rape culture. I'm honestly curious about how you don't seem to understand such an obvious example of rape culture.

But I did say:

Knight wrote:

As I understand Hedonist's stance it isn't so much that there is no rape culture, but that it is not the prevailing idea of society as a whole. From the sounds of it Cleveland, Texas is just the kind of place where rape culture would still be the prevailing school of thought: A town of 9,000 in one of the most conservative states in the country, and as described in this very thread "redneck central".

It is hardly what I would call proof that all of western culture still holds to the ideals of victim blaming and rape culture, only that there are some places where such schools of thought still stand.

This. All of this.

If you are going to go with this line of reasoning it would be helpful if you could give some evidence demonstrating what is the exception and what is the norm. I don't think the term 'rape culture' is meant to imply that these attitudes are universal, just that they have a strong prevalence in many parts of Western societies. I'm being cynical here, but I'm prepared to accept that idea without bothering to look for too much evidence.

Even if "rape culture" is something that only occurs in a few pockets of society, it would still exist and still be a problem that needs to be dealt with.

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To broach a new topic here, doesn't the topic mention that some of the perpetrators were in middle school students? And that others were high-school students and full-feldged adults? And weren't some of the sex acts filmed? Because that adds a whole new level of wrong. Aren't the male middle school students among the abused here too? Clearly the girl got the worst of it but from what I'm seeing there were filmed sex acts between children, which makes the boys victims as well.

Victims as well as perpetrators of the crime, not in lieu of.

If two fifteen year olds sleep together consensually are they both victims of a crime? In a legal sense maybe, but I wouldn't bother prosecuting either of them unless there are problems.

Alhazred wrote:

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C: I 'jumped down the throat' of TheHedonist despite being calm and measured in my response

Didn't sound like that when I read it.

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Agreed, I was the one who was bitchy there and I admitted to and apologized for it. I don't even know where you got that claim, Al.

Sorry, I didn't re-read the entire thread. It was the impression I got from the first few posts.

Funny that you apologize to the person you failed at defending, rather than the person you mistakenly slagged off. Double standards, indeed.


Yep, that's all I have to contribute here.

Notanoni wrote:

Everything I wanted to say and couldn't think of how best to word it.

Thank you for this.

The NY Times article is horrible. The one from the Houston Chronicle highlights the problem with victim blaming. I didn't read the comments on the Chronicle article.
There was an article in Sunday's Chronicle about the case, which was the first I heard about it. When I saw it happened in Cleveland, I wasn't really surprised. Like I said, redneck central. But then much of that part of Texas is.
What happened is horrible. The victim blaming is horrible.

The NY Times responds to criticism regarding the article.

Alhazred wrote:

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In your first post on the matter, you implied that part of the responsibility for rape happening lies with the victim. So you really don't agree with me, because I believe that full responsibility for rape lies with the rapist.

You said this:

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Because the victim's parents shouldn't be the main issue. The way the victim dressed and acted shouldn't be the issue.

I agree with this statement. The key word in this statement, however, is "shouldn't."

"Shouldn't" and "reality" are often two different things. The former does not always change the latter. It certainly doesn't in rape, where whether or not a rapist should have raped someone doesn't influence their decision to do so.

So, we should just accept that? We shouldn't try to change it? The way the victims parents acted and the way the victim dressed and acted only become the main issues if we treat them that way. I don't care if the rapist thought these were important. There is no excuse what so ever for agreeing with them.

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In your first post on the matter, you implied that part of the responsibility for rape happening lies with the victim.

No, I didn't. I've never implied any such thing. I've outright said, however, that any victim may have had preventive measures available to them (for the millionth time, responsible parenting would've stopped this from happening. You can wank all you want about everything else, but if the 11-year old's mother had actually been supervising her, and not letting her out of sight for hours of a time, and kept track of who she was associating with so she could stop her from associating with men twice her age, which any responsible parent would do, this wouldn't have happened. Responsible parents would not look at a situation like this and think "since it falls on the men not to rape, I can trust them not to rape.")

Yes, but negligent parenting is not a direct cause of rape. Pointing at the parents and saying that they could have protected their daughter from this isn't helpful because it ignores the main problem, which is the rapists. The two things are separate issues and should be treated as such.

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So you really don't agree with me, because I believe that full responsibility for rape lies with the rapist.

And that is retarded, because rapists don't give a flying fuck.

This? This bit here? This is the important bit. This is the problem that needs to be addressed. Where possible people should be made to care, which can be done up to a point. The ones who can't be made to care should be dealt with by other means. Either way, the focus should be on trying to change the attitudes and behaviour of these people.

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It isn't just shouldn't. It's not an issue. It's not about what the victim was wearing or what time of night she was up or what streets she was walking down, it's about the rapist who raped her.

Flat-out wrong, because while it shouldn't be an issue, it often is an issue. It's an issue if a rapist saw a woman in naughty nightware and couldn't control himself. It's an issue if a rapist picked the first target with a vagina he saw and uses her clothes as an excuse when caught. It's an issue when a rapist rapes someone because they have easy access to that person socially, because somewhere else, the first two rapists still exist.

An issue? Only to the rapist. If the rapist saw her in a nightie and couldn't control himself, the main issue is his lack of self control. By focusing on the way she was dressed, you end up ignoring the real problem which is, strangely enough, the mentality of the rapist.

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but I'm saying preventive measures aren't going to help,

And you're wrong, because this is a gross over-generalization. You're actively refusing to look at every case individually and consider the factors therein while parroting that the same set of rules should apply to all cases regardless of variables. This very case alone proves that there is a possible circumstance for a rape to have been prevented by something other than the rapists adhering to morals.

I believe there is an expression about sticky plasters and gaping wounds which would be appropriate here.

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and that placing rape prevention emphasis on the victim

Oh look, you don't understand my argument at all, as this is not and has never been my argument. My argument has been that the variables between cases of rape make it more complicated than "rapists shouldn't rape," and depending on those variables, preventive measures can, in some cases, stop rape.

People should be sensible? Well, yes, they should, but focusing on the stupidity of rape victims isn't helpful. Preventative measures are inadequate and very little, if anything, is gained by discussing what the victim, or their relatives, should have done that might have prevented it if they were lucky.

Why do I keep clicking on this thread? I start off the day happy then read this and start foaming at the mouth in pure rage.

The question I think should be asked is, are there any failsafe preventative measures for rape? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, there are not.

Take Saudi Arabia. Women aren't allowed outside without a male supervisor from the family, otherwise they could be branded a harlot. But that doesn't stop women getting raped. And they dress in hajibs that cover the body and make a woman look as sexually appetising as a marble collumn, but women still get raped.

Yes, if the mother knew where her daughter was and kept better tabs on her daughter this probably wouldn't have happened. But this article neglects to bring up the fact that the men who manipulated a young girl into thinking her behaviour was not going to lead to trouble and then took advantage of her naiivity and raped her were sadistic fucks.

And by some strange stretch of the imagination that she said yes, that's no excuse. She can't legally consent. You don't have to know age of consent laws to figure out that one.
No matter how she dressed, that's no excuse.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

The question I think should be asked is, are there any failsafe preventative measures for rape? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, there are not.

Take Saudi Arabia. Women aren't allowed outside without a male supervisor from the family, otherwise they could be branded a harlot. But that doesn't stop women getting raped. And they dress in hajibs that cover the body and make a woman look as sexually appetising as a marble collumn, but women still get raped.

Yes, if the mother knew where her daughter was and kept better tabs on her daughter this probably wouldn't have happened. But this article neglects to bring up the fact that the men who manipulated a young girl into thinking her behaviour was not going to lead to trouble and then took advantage of her naiivity and raped her were sadistic fucks.

Well, Harley. Sometimes... you're pretty cool.