11-Year-Old Gang-Raped. NYT posts controversial article about it.

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Leaving aside the fact that Martin Luther was excommunicated and damned to hell for nailing his missives to the door of the cathedral (according to the Catholics)

You're practiced at sounding like you know what you're talking about.

Repeating your assertions louder and with more force when they are challenged is not one of the behaviors to pick up from the opposing side, hombre.

Also, your argument is simplistic. There is in fact a lot of disagreement between what are and what are not appropriate ways to worship; "Christianity" has dozens, if not hundreds, of sects which disagree vehemently on how to worship. Even Scientology, the premier boogeyman for religious unfreedom, has several different lesser groups that decided to break away from the main church. So there's a choice right there; if you don't like how your church chooses to pray, make your own. I doubt Martin Luther was terribly annoyed at being excommunicated; in his mind, the church was illegitimate because they were not worshiping correctly, so what did he care?

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Religion, from Hindu to Catholic, is a set of institutionalized rules by which one must abide to show their devotion to their deities.

'Kay.

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It's the ultimate civil pressure, and it's not a choice.

It's a choice in the same way that your reaction to other societal values and ideas is a choice.

Seriously, religion is not some magical mind numbing potion that uniquely traps you and prevents you from ever walking away, and no matter how many times you repeat that point it's never going to be true.

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There are only a few set ways that one can show their faith; a Muslim cannot say a rosary as an appropriate way to honor Allah. A Catholic cannot take a pilgrimage to Allahabad to honor Jesus. Religion, whether it's Judeo-Christian or Shinto, is a set of rules by which one must abide to show their faith.

Judeo-Christian, Judeo-Christian, oh shit, I only talked about Judeo-Christian religions again. I better quick throw in this one exotic religion I don't know shit about but it's OK because no one else is going to know anything either.

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The fact a person has chosen to dress in the holy garb of their religion is different then choosing to believe in a supernatural force. The former is a result of the latter.

Not necessarily. One may become a Muslim because they agree with the reasoning behind wearing a burka and want to wear a burka.

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Q: How does this religion say I may properly honor my god? A: You may do either A), B), or C). That is what I mean by choice and how religion removes it. You can only honor your God in ways that your religion, regardless of whether or not you're a convert, has said is appropriate.

Only your generalizations are just generalizations and would only work if every member of every religion had the same views of everyone else within their own religion. Due to the existence of sects, we can see that this is simply not true.

Like I said above, repeating the same bad arguments over and over doesn't make them better.

Nope.

Converts and sects change nothing. There is still a set number of ways a member may show their devotion to God. That is what I mean by there is no choice. Even if you make your own religion, you're just the one making the rules by which others must abide.

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Nope.

Converts and sects change nothing. There is still a set number of ways a member may show their devotion to God. That is what I mean by there is no choice. Even if you make your own religion, you're just the one making the rules by which others must abide.

What about people that feel how they show their devotion is a personal choice? Even when I was a Christian I was of the belief that the relationship between a Christian and God is a personal one, and how people chose to glorify Him was a choice that should be made personally for everyone. After all, a God that would send His only son down to die for the sins of mankind didn't seem all that petty to me about how a person chose to worship or glorify him, as long as they didn't harm others while doing so. You didn't have to follow methods of praise other people set, or that the Bible set, because as long as there was a love of God in your heart you were honoring Him.

Religions, much like the societies they are born from, are much more capable of evolution and individuality than you seem to think.

(Also I know this is kind of off-topic, but who here saw religion wank being the result of this thread? )

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Nope.

Converts and sects change nothing. There is still a set number of ways a member may show their devotion to God. That is what I mean by there is no choice. Even if you make your own religion, you're just the one making the rules by which others must abide.

What about the still-ongoing process of new sects forming within every major religion because they want:

1) A different set of rules.

2) The same set of rules but a looser interpretation of them.

3) The same set of rules but a stricter interpretation of them.

What about the doctrinal evolution of existing sects (Catholics are a particularly good example) where something that was required can evolve into something that is forbidden over time, or vice versa, and the relative importance attributed to various beliefs can also vary widely in different time periods?

What about religions and sects that tolerate large numbers of members who don't adhere to the rules?

What about religions that are particularly full of vague, ill-defined rules, and/or have very few rules at all, so that individuals members can make most of the decisions about what they practice and believe? (Shinto, Jainism, large portions of Hinduism, many sects of Buddhism, Unitarianism, Bahá'í)

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Nope.

Converts and sects change nothing. There is still a set number of ways a member may show their devotion to God. That is what I mean by there is no choice. Even if you make your own religion, you're just the one making the rules by which others must abide.

You've obviously never been to a UCC church.

If you are religious, you do have a choice. You can live by the rules of your religion, or you can go to hell. That's your choice.

Some Mormons came around to our house once. They were lads in their mid-20s. They wanted to preach, but mum doesn't really do that sort of thing (though I'd be happy to argue for hours). Then they asked if maybe there was something she'd like for her to do around the house, and she said that if they really wanted to help they could help sort out our front garden. They looked at our front garden (a perpetual mess) and looked absolutely ready to help out until mum hastily admitted she'd been joking.

It's good old "Nature vs Nurture". Are these women wearing the hijab doing so by choice? They choose to believe in Islam, therefore a veil is tradition, custom, and practically a rule.

In fact a lot of people live by rules that are not religion-based. Why does practically every country in the world have laws against killing people? Why do they all have laws against theft? Why do all people think that the Holocaust was wrong, and why are those who think it's okay considered maniacs and sociopaths?

In life we all have choices to make. Some of them are big and some of them are small. Butter, or margarine? Rape, or don't rape?

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

If you are religious, you do have a choice. You can live by the rules of your religion, or you can go to hell. That's your choice.

Or you can say to hell with your rules, I believe this is the way to serve God and then start your own sect of the religion. People have been doing it for centuries, you'd think the idea that not all religion is that black and white would have sunk in by now.

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Some Mormons came around to our house once. They were lads in their mid-20s. They wanted to preach, but mum doesn't really do that sort of thing (though I'd be happy to argue for hours). Then they asked if maybe there was something she'd like for her to do around the house, and she said that if they really wanted to help they could help sort out our front garden. They looked at our front garden (a perpetual mess) and looked absolutely ready to help out until mum hastily admitted she'd been joking.

This has what to do with anything? I suppose it is a religion based anecdote but it doesn't really show that these gentlemen were somehow brainwashed by their religion. Only that they firmly believed in it, and didn't mind helping your mother if it meant that they might spread the word of God which made them so happy to others.

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It's good old "Nature vs Nurture". Are these women wearing the hijab doing so by choice? They choose to believe in Islam, therefore a veil is tradition, custom, and practically a rule.

Yes it is a choice. Look at the Cracked article that was linked earlier in this thread about the number of Muslim women in non-Islamic nations that wear the veil. At the time of the article in France the number was practically a margin of error considering the female Muslim population of the country. Are you saying those 300+ women were made to wear the veil by a belief that they must wear them or go to hell when they likely knew other Muslim women who chose not to wear the veil? They chose it as a way to show a great devotion to Allah, in a somewhat similar manner to a Catholic woman choosing to become a nun. They don't do it because they fear they will go to hell otherwise, but because they wish to go above and beyond to show their devotion to their God.

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In fact a lot of people live by rules that are not religion-based. Why does practically every country in the world have laws against killing people? Why do they all have laws against theft? Why do all people think that the Holocaust was wrong, and why are those who think it's okay considered maniacs and sociopaths?

Because humans are social creatures. We don't like it when those close to us are hurt and as such we make rules to punish those that would hurt them.

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Nope.

Converts and sects change nothing. There is still a set number of ways a member may show their devotion to God. That is what I mean by there is no choice. Even if you make your own religion, you're just the one making the rules by which others must abide.

If you're using this argument, than government is much the same way.

So converts and sects change nothing because you're still operating under rules mandated to you by a personal code that you have chosen? Yet despite the fact that you can choose to leave this religion at any time, not follow the rules at any time, etc, you still don't have any choice but to blindly follow the religion?

Your argument is incredibly inconsistent.

What about all the "casual" Christians that exist all throughout the Western World? The ones that consider themselves Christian, but don't go to Church regularly, have sex outside of marriage, and such?

You're trying to fit a large, diverse group of people (ie: any religious person ever) into a very narrowly defined box, and it's really not working. (no matter how many times you repeat it)

I don't have much to say... actually, that's a lie. I do have a lot to say, but I'll keep this brief lest I start ranting.

For one, I firmly believe I'm going to hell because I choose not to worship the Judeo-Christian God. Is he real? I don't know. But I was indoctrinated in the Christian church from a young age, and I deliberately turned away and chose another path in my 20's. I still can't shake my indoctrination... so are you saying I didn't have a choice, Ozy? I did, even though I still believe what I was told.

Your argument is not only simplistic, as others have said, it's also insulting. People can and do make choices contrary to what they believe all the time. And there are a LOT of different religions out there... which is double insulting to anyone who chooses to believe stuff outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

Maximilia wrote:

[...]outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

So please try not to put all atheists in the same box. Just because I don't believe in any deities or philosophies doesn't mean I don't know anything about them.

Maximilia wrote:

... which is double insulting to anyone who chooses to believe stuff outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

I'm an agnostic, and I don't put religion into a little box. There's many ways to think, and if you think all members of any group think alike, you're in for a big disappointment. Hell, a lot of people can't decide what they themselves think, so...yeah.

Frankly, no one can prove a damned thing, so there's no use in fighting about it.

Lapin wrote:

Maximilia wrote:

[...]outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

So please try not to put all atheists in the same box. Just because I don't believe in any deities or philosophies doesn't mean I don't know anything about them.

Yeah, dude. Just gonna kinda echo Lapin, but -- that's equally simplistic and insulting, the way you put that.

Penguin wrote:

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Leaving aside the fact that Martin Luther was excommunicated and damned to hell for nailing his missives to the door of the cathedral (according to the Catholics)

You're practiced at sounding like you know what you're talking about.

No she isn't. She's practiced at saying some irrelevant "fact" then surrounding it with moronic bullshit. I can't think of one post of hers that was intelligent, insightful, or even funny. She's either the biggest fuckwaste to wander onto this board since Quamp or the best troll to come along since Lolita.

By the way, I read the first page then clicked right to page 5. How the hell did we get from Cyberwulf's blind idiocy regarding the mother's utter failure as a parent leading directly to her daughter being raped to nonsense about Martin Luther and religion?

Obviously, nobody has a choice about whether to like Justin Bieber or not, because culture is simply too overwhelming for free will to exist at all.

To haul this thread somewhat back on topic, I'll point out that atheists love misogyny just as much as theists. The only difference is that they justify it using SCIENCE! instead of the supernatural.

^ pretty much this.

Or, as I've also heard... NATURE!

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

Penguin wrote:

OzymandiasBowie wrote:

Leaving aside the fact that Martin Luther was excommunicated and damned to hell for nailing his missives to the door of the cathedral (according to the Catholics)

You're practiced at sounding like you know what you're talking about.

No she isn't. She's practiced at saying some irrelevant "fact" then surrounding it with moronic bullshit.

Hence "sounding like" and not "actually."

Cyberwulf wrote:

To haul this thread somewhat back on topic, I'll point out that atheists love misogyny just as much as theists. The only difference is that they justify it using SCIENCE! instead of the supernatural.

Don't get me fucking started. -grinds teeth-

Nihilist wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Maximilia wrote:

... which is double insulting to anyone who chooses to believe stuff outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

I'm an agnostic, and I don't put religion into a little box. There's many ways to think, and if you think all members of any group think alike, you're in for a big disappointment. Hell, a lot of people can't decide what they themselves think, so...yeah.

Frankly, no one can prove a damned thing, so there's no use in fighting about it.

I've got my Jesus pictures and my queer porn and large pictures of Marvel comics characters in drag and I love the decor.

But do you have all three embodied in the same picture? That's the real question here.

Notanoni wrote:

Nihilist wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Maximilia wrote:

... which is double insulting to anyone who chooses to believe stuff outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

I'm an agnostic, and I don't put religion into a little box. There's many ways to think, and if you think all members of any group think alike, you're in for a big disappointment. Hell, a lot of people can't decide what they themselves think, so...yeah.

Frankly, no one can prove a damned thing, so there's no use in fighting about it.

I've got my Jesus pictures and my queer porn and large pictures of Marvel comics characters in drag and I love the decor.

But do you have all three embodied in the same picture? That's the real question here.

Jesus x Gambit slash ftw!!!

InkWeaver wrote:

Lapin wrote:

Maximilia wrote:

[...]outside the little box atheists/agnostics put religion into, which is only the "major" ones. Fuck that shit.

So please try not to put all atheists in the same box. Just because I don't believe in any deities or philosophies doesn't mean I don't know anything about them.

Yeah, dude. Just gonna kinda echo Lapin, but -- that's equally simplistic and insulting, the way you put that.

Point. I do apologize.

^

InkWeaver wrote:

^

Yay! I get a lil knee-jerky at times.