12 dead at a Dark Knight Rises midnight screening

Kevin M wrote:

I_Lam_Edhellen wrote:

Moving on, here's someone blaming the shooting on homosexuality. Let's point and laugh.

How the hell do you make that connection?

To quote him:

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“I think the sources of this is multifaceted but you can put it all I think under the heading of rebellion to God, a rejection of the God of the Bible. … We’ve been dealing Teddy and I know the AFA Journal has been dealing with denominations that no longer believe in the God of the Bible, they no longer believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation, they teach that God is okay with homosexuality, this is just increasing more and more. It is mankind shaking its fist at the authority of God [...] In that short period of time, roughly 40 years, we have seen such a transformation in values in our communities, whether it’s rural or whether it’s big city. I have to think that all of this, whether it’s the Hollywood movies, whether it’s what we see on the internets, whether it’s liberal bias in the media, whether it’s our politicians changing public policy, I think all of those somehow have fit together – and I have to say also churches who are leaving the authority of scripture and losing their fear of God – all of those things have seem to have come together to give us these kinds of incidents.

TLDR: Gay people, being liberal, Hollywood movies, and a lack of a theocracy in the US make a man in the sky mad for some reason. When he get's mad, bad stuff happens.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Penguin: never mind throwing up your hands and claiming OH YOU'D ALL NITPICK ANYWAY. Only one of the examples you cited involves a civilian (perhaps "private citizen" would be more accurate) apprehending/stopping a gunman while using his own gun. The civilian who intervened in the firefight and got killed himself - I'm not saying he wasn't brave, but he wound up dead. Mostly because the maniac with the gun was wearing a bulletproof vest. The reason I note that a police officer and a sherriff's deputy were involved in the third incident has less to do with their training on how to use firearms properly and more with their training on how to approach an armed suspect. Again, very brave, and I'm sure that in most places the protocol is to wait for backup, but still not the same as Joe Bloggs who only knows about policework from cop dramas.

I mean if you have examples of “private citizen stops maniac mid rampage by using a gun” post them. That’s what I would do.

Fair enough. The best I can come up with right now (I'm procrastinating on getting ready for work) is this shooting, where shooter killed two, wounded another two, and was killed by a citizen with a concealed carry permit.

It looks like he might've just been there to specifically kill the two, though.

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I'm not anti-gun or pro-gun here. I just agree that this

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"It does make me wonder, with all those people in the theater, was there nobody that was carrying a gun that could have stopped this guy more quickly?"

is a ridiculous thing to say and it's the kind of thing that gets said every time some nutcase goes berserk with a gun in a crowded, public place.

It's obnoxious, but it's a knee-jerk reaction and a response to the other litany of things that get said in the wake of massacres. Just as predictably, there will be people blaming the NRA and calling for stricter gun control. Immediately after the shooting, people were falling all over themselves to politicize it; there was a rumor circulating around the Internet that he was part of Occupy Wall Street, and ABC said he was a Tea Partier.

It's a cynical race to direct the "media narrative."

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Let me answer your question with a question, Mr. Tea Partier - what normal person brings a fucking gun with them to the pictures? No, seriously - gun people on this board, do you go everywhere packing heat, or are there places where it's just more of a hassle if you bring your gun?

Almost everywhere, or at least I used to. I've been living on military bases for the last four years, and overseas at that for the last three, so I haven't carried a personally-owned firearm for awhile now. I'm pretty sure my permit expires this year; I'll have to get a new one when I get back to the US.

More to the point, I carried wherever it was legal. Government buildings, for example, are off-limits. Work had a no-weapons policy, so I didn't carry there. Only visited friends while carrying if they knew I was and were okay with it.

It's a little weird at first, but you get used to it.

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And if you do, would you be confident enough in your abilities to whip out your gun in a dark room filled with panicking people and take out the nutcase with a nice clean headshot?

I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly confident. I'd have a couple advantages a lot of people wouldn't, though; I've been tear-gassed, I've got some experience in dangerous, high-stress situations with a lot of unknowns, and I'm familiar with the concepts of concealment and cover. I've also practiced against "armored" targets, and researched alternative tactics. Having never practiced this exact scenario though, or fired a shot "in anger," I can't say for sure I could do it, but I'd be confident enough to make the attempt.

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She was with her friend Allie Young when the gunman entered the Aurora movie theater and opened fire.

"There's smoke. There's explosions. There's blood. There's death. There's guns being fired. And there's bats flying on the screen because the movie was still on," Davies said.

And amid the chaos, Allie Young realized she been shot -- hit by two bullets in the neck.

"There's an explosion," Young said from her hospital bed with Stephanie at her side. "I remember opening my eyes. I'm on the ground, blood everywhere."

Allie urged Stephanie to flee. But Young's friend stuck by her side.

"She puts her fingers over my artery, when my carotid artery exploded. She puts her fingers over there," Young said, placing her own fingers on her neck.

After what seemed like a lifetime in the dark, Stephanie carried her friend across two parking lots to an ambulance.

That's what courage and presence of mind look like.

I_Lam_Edhellen wrote:

Oh look, someone's trying to blame the shooting on Autism. What a moron. Let's point and laugh!

Go fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yourself. Seriously. And it's a fucking spectrum, not a scale, dipshit.

Interesting crossover between this and the health care debate: potentially two million in medical bills for uninsured man.

myeerah wrote:

Interesting crossover between this and the health care debate: potentially two million in medical bills for uninsured man.

But...but...but...if we had national heathcare, people would go out and get shot more often so they could take advantage of it! People have to learn to be responsible and not get themselves shot! Say no to movies! [/sarcasm]

Lady Anne wrote:

myeerah wrote:

Interesting crossover between this and the health care debate: potentially two million in medical bills for uninsured man.

But...but...but...if we had national heathcare, people would go out and get shot more often so they could take advantage of it! People have to learn to be responsible and not get themselves shot! Say no to movies! [/sarcasm]

It's also Socalism that caused him to hate his country and be a criminal anyway.

WD40 wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

myeerah wrote:

Interesting crossover between this and the health care debate: potentially two million in medical bills for uninsured man.

But...but...but...if we had national heathcare, people would go out and get shot more often so they could take advantage of it! People have to learn to be responsible and not get themselves shot! Say no to movies! [/sarcasm]

It's also Socalism that caused him to hate his country and be a criminal anyway.

Socalism? So that's what they're teaching at UCR these days! (Or did you mean socialism?)

Seriously, WTF? Why do people have to take a tragedy and use it for their petty politics? James Holmes has been accused of being both a member of the Occupy movement and Tea Partier (admittedly, it would be lolworthy if both turned out to be true). Also, he committed the massacre because of secularism, homosexuality, brainwashing, lax gun laws, overtight gun laws, socialism, capitalism, and probably the Illuminati.



My theory? He has mental health problems, which can convince a person that it's a good idea to do crazy things.

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

I, for one, blame the shooting on Baltimore.

I blame it on the sunshine. I blame it on the moonlight. I blame it on the good times.

I do not blame it on the boogie.

Penguin wrote:

I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly confident. I'd have a couple advantages a lot of people wouldn't, though; I've been tear-gassed, I've got some experience in dangerous, high-stress situations with a lot of unknowns, and I'm familiar with the concepts of concealment and cover. I've also practiced against "armored" targets, and researched alternative tactics. Having never practiced this exact scenario though, or fired a shot "in anger," I can't say for sure I could do it, but I'd be confident enough to make the attempt.

Yeah, that's the thing of it. People can armchair quarterback this one, but there was more to it than just "dude is shooting ---> someone needs to shoot him back." How many people aside from the military members in the audience had been exposed to a high-stress situation like that before? Or to tear gas? Or any of the other things you mentioned? I'm a civilian who can shoot, yeah, but in a high-stress situation? I can honestly say I'm more likely to hurt someone who doesn't need shooting. My skill set is more in triaging the aftermath*, not in acting in the midst of things.

Lady Anne wrote:

Socalism? So that's what they're teaching at UCR these days! (Or did you mean socialism?)

I think the Rec Center staff here at UCR teaches that--you know, surfing, ocean kayaking, hiking, all that shit. Mostly I just teach vodou and leave socalism to the experts.


*After some very odd jobs as a training scriptwriter, I can now honestly say I'm the only person in my department who can triage a major incident. Yay for obscure skill sets?

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I'm a civilian who can shoot, yeah, but in a high-stress situation?

It was INSIDE a theater, right? So it would have been dark as well. The situation definitely favors him because he didn't care who he shot. Someone trying to shoot him would first have to SEE him in a very dimly lit room full of screaming, flailing people.

Still, it's not about whether or not more guns or less guns could stop incidents like this. It's whether the draconian measures needed to so curtail gun ownership to the point that this wouldn't happen (which seems impossible anyway, just ask Norway) is worth the consequences of NO ONE ever being able to use a gun to save their own ass ever again. The bottom line is that regular citizens carrying firearms makes them safer, and these incidents are WAY too far and few between to warrant the loss of that safety.

How about some more things to blame?


AFA's Bryan Fischer: It's because school kids arn't preying.

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[There have been] catastrophic consequences in American life since the Supreme Court kicked God out of our public school system in 1962 by prohibiting school prayer [of which the shooting is one].

[...]

And yet simple though it was, it was a prayer of great power. Through it, God was invited to provide a providential shield of protection and blessing for students, families, schools and our entire nation. Perhaps the fact that this was a prayer on the lips of children gave it unusual effectiveness.

Jerry Newcombe, Truth in Action Ministries: People arn't scared of Hell any more.

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If they kill themselves, they think it's all over. But that's like going from the frying pan into the fire. Where's the fear of God in our society? I don't think people would do those sorts of things if they truly understood the reality of Hell.

Bryan Fischer again: It's because liberals.

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[W]we’ve tried it the liberals’ way for sixty years now and what do we got? We have massacres in Aurora

Reddit/Mernsrights: He wasn't getting laid.

[edit] Also from Reddit/Mensrights: Specifically on the three men who sacrificed themselves to protect their girlfriends

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They saved their lives so the girlfriends can be screwing other dudes in several months time…….. probably much less. Heroism is a suckers game.

[edit edit] Towards an Antidote: Christian Bale makes unannounced visit.

WD40 wrote:

[edit edit] Towards an Antidote: Christian Bale makes unannounced visit.

You know, a post calling for Christian Bale to come visit the wounded went around Tumblr in the last few days. They also thought it would be a GREAT idea if he were dressed as Batman, even though that would've probably caused a lot of post-trauma stress for those poor people.

I don't think they counted on the fact that Bale is a pretty decent dude who would've visited either way.

Sutremaine wrote:

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

I, for one, blame the shooting on Baltimore.

I blame it on the sunshine. I blame it on the moonlight. I blame it on the good times.

I do not blame it on the boogie.

But the real question is: Can you control your feet?

Frankly, I'm just wondering how they caught the guy, alive and unshot? That's not how these scenarios usually end.

And isn't it a sad sad commentary on our world when I can say "these scenarios" and all of us can come up with one or two of them within the last couple of years?

Freezer wrote:

Frankly, I'm just wondering how they caught the guy, alive and unshot? That's not how these scenarios usually end.

Somehow I have a feeling it's because he's white.

Snake Bandage wrote:

Freezer wrote:

Frankly, I'm just wondering how they caught the guy, alive and unshot? That's not how these scenarios usually end.

Somehow I have a feeling it's because he's white.

The Virginia Tech shooter is the only shooter of this stripe I can think of who wasn't white.

I don't want to downplay this event or anything, but there sure seem to be an awful lot of people popping up with theories on the why of it all. Maybe I just don't pay enough attention to these kinds of things but jesus there's like fifteen in this thread alone.

From what I gather--and I could well be wrong--it sounds like the police found him when he was trying to clear a jam and going back to get more weapons/ammunition. Since he was armored damn near head to toe*, and at that moment unarmed, it's not surprising they took him alive. He surrendered. There was one officer who said that had he been armed at the moment, the results would have been very different for the first responding team of police.

*If the officers shot first, it would have hit body armor, I mean. I don't know the circumstances of his surrender, if he gave up right away or if there were shots fired.

From what I've read so far, he simply surrendered next to his car. As for the AR-15, he gave up trying to clear the jam and switched to his pistol.

Also, it turns out he wasn't as thoroughly armored as previously thought. He had the helmet and throat and groin protectors, but the armor vest, if any, was likely IIA:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

People probably assumed that his tactical assault vest over it was armor. If this is true, anything beefier than a .22 would've punched right through it.

If the guy just surrendered like that, that just leaves me more confused. Guys like that don't just surrender peacefully.

Oh, and another cherry on this shit sundae: There's apparently been a spike in gun sales in teh wake of the shooting. No one's quite sure if it's because people are arming themselves against guys like Holmes or if it's a panicked rush by the Fourth Amendment crowd, similar to the one we saw in the wake of Obama's election.

Freezer wrote:

...There's apparently been a spike in gun sales in teh wake of the shooting. No one's quite sure if it's because people are arming themselves against guys like Holmes or if it's a panicked rush by the Fourth Amendment crowd, similar to the one we saw in the wake of Obama's election.

They're afraid of unreasonable searches and seizures?

rachel wrote:

Freezer wrote:

...There's apparently been a spike in gun sales in teh wake of the shooting. No one's quite sure if it's because people are arming themselves against guys like Holmes or if it's a panicked rush by the Fourth Amendment crowd, similar to the one we saw in the wake of Obama's election.

They're afraid of unreasonable searches and seizures?

They're probably afraid of that, too. But yeah, it's the second amendment that deals with guns.

WD40 wrote:

It's because school kids arn't preying.

Time to quit drinking.

Lady Anne wrote:

rachel wrote:

Freezer wrote:

...There's apparently been a spike in gun sales in teh wake of the shooting. No one's quite sure if it's because people are arming themselves against guys like Holmes or if it's a panicked rush by the Fourth Amendment crowd, similar to the one we saw in the wake of Obama's election.

They're afraid of unreasonable searches and seizures?

They're probably afraid of that, too. But yeah, it's the second amendment that deals with guns.

When the second amendment to your constitution has to do with gun ownership, you gotta look long and hard at your country's history and wonder what the fuck happened.

Snake Bandage wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

rachel wrote:

Freezer wrote:

...There's apparently been a spike in gun sales in teh wake of the shooting. No one's quite sure if it's because people are arming themselves against guys like Holmes or if it's a panicked rush by the Fourth Amendment crowd, similar to the one we saw in the wake of Obama's election.

They're afraid of unreasonable searches and seizures?

They're probably afraid of that, too. But yeah, it's the second amendment that deals with guns.

When the second amendment to your constitution has to do with gun ownership, you gotta look long and hard at your country's history and wonder what the fuck happened.

What happened was when The Constitution was written, the country was 20% of it's current size, 5% of the current population, 2/3s undeveloped land, full of hostile natives and bandits and just coming off a major war with the specter of the loser of that war coming back at any moment for Round 2. For much of the country, there was no such thing as local police. Any law enforcement might be a day or more away for many smaller farms and settlements. Then, guns were a necessity.

Not to mention that then, the most powerful personal weapon one could own was a black powder, single-shot rifle.

Historical Context: You no haz it.