Health care reform on the way?

That is made of Al Franken, originally published in Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.

Penguin wrote:

That is made of Al Franken, originally published in Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.

Al Franken is made of win.

Lady Anne wrote:

Penguin wrote:

That is made of Al Franken, originally published in Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.

Al Franken is made of win.

He so is.

TheHermit wrote:

Jesus. wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

OH NOES!!!! THE PRIVATE COMPANIES WERE DOING SUCH A TERRIFIC JOB

Well, the government isn't the smartest group either. :/

Equivalence fallacy, easily busted when you put the accomplishments of the private sector and public sector side by side and notice that not only does government typically do things faster, cheaper, and with less overhead than corporations,

Sauce plx

TheHermit wrote:

but nearly every significant advancement in quality of life over the last hundred years has been due to government.

Ah well. I know I shouldn't do this, since it's only going to end in blood tears Psy posting lots of SmugDog and TheHermit shrieking "OUT! OUT! THE POWER OF DAWKINS COMPELS YOU!" but I'm a sucker for hanging curveballs.


OK, first, nice job on citing a fallacy then turning around to engage in cherry picking (look ma! I can type "logical fallacies" into wikipedia too! Aren't I smrt?) with an article from, God help us, "governmentisgood.com." I should really stop there, given the reception an article from, say, the Cato Institute would get, but let's skip that part for now. For the first part, there's some things he's totally right about; regulation of the business cycle, particularly in the suppression of monopolies, is a Good Thing in any sane economy. Though I can't help noticing the irony in the fact that all of the greatest government achievements- Interstate system, the internet- were developed by and for that EEEEVVVVUUUULLLL organization you've spent this thread getting mountainous piles of sand in your clit about: the military.
Yes, the military IS a financial black hole, but it's a black hole that occasionally shits diamonds in the form of technology that was designed to kill brown people. (And yellow people. And white people who like cabbage or doing unnatural things to verbs.)


Then there's the parts where it's just hilarious bullshit. Nice job ending segregation, government! Nevermind that you were the wastes of humanity who made it the law in the first fucking place.

So really, next time you hurf durf into one of these threads, can you make at least a token effort to rely on something other than stereotyping and bullshit? Thanks.

gaijinguy wrote:

So really, next time you hurf durf into one of these threads, can you make at least a token effort to rely on something other than stereotyping and bullshit? Thanks.

But...but where would be the fun in that?

gaijinguy wrote:

Nice job ending segregation, government! Nevermind that you were the wastes of humanity who made it the law in the first fucking place.

Weren't the Jim Crow laws passed on a state and local level and resolved on the federal level?

gaijinguy wrote:

So really, next time you hurf durf into one of these threads, can you make at least a token effort to rely on something other than stereotyping and bullshit? Thanks.

While you talk about GUVMINT, like they are the worst idea ever since sliced shit.

gaijinguy wrote:

Though I can't help noticing the irony in the fact that all of the greatest government achievements- Interstate system, the internet- were developed by and for that EEEEVVVVUUUULLLL organization you've spent this thread getting mountainous piles of sand in your clit about: the military.

Whenever something is being done for the military, republicans are much more agreeable. You see, for the public, socialism is bad and you don't want no incompetent government fucking it up, but the military deserve the best.

Speaking about the military deserving the best, when you have your ass firmly planted in TRICARE(unless you're a dumbass, which you're probably not), the least you could do is shut up about the government.

gaijinguy wrote:

Sauce plx

How about checking the topic? All around the world there are healthcare systems run primarily (or even completely) by government, and not only are they far less expensive than the business-run US healthcare system, they cover everybody. I could come up with more examples if you like (hint: anytime privatization leads to a natural monopoly), but I'm not convinced you aren't going to just move the goalposts if I spend the effort to find them.

gaijinguy wrote:

Though I can't help noticing the irony in the fact that all of the greatest government achievements- Interstate system, the internet- were developed by and for that EEEEVVVVUUUULLLL organization you've spent this thread getting mountainous piles of sand in your clit about: the military.
Yes, the military IS a financial black hole, but it's a black hole that occasionally shits diamonds in the form of technology that was designed to kill brown people. (And yellow people. And white people who like cabbage or doing unnatural things to verbs.)

Putting aside your questionable criterion of what constitutes the "greatest" of achievements... Here we have an excellent example of political speak, wherein gaijinguy uses a lot of words, throws a lot of insults, dances around the topic, but never actually gets around to saying much of anything useful. Yes, military spending sometimes leads to good things. Hell, government military spending put millions back to work at the tail end of the Great Depression. But this doesn't really address my argument that government is, well, good. In fact it just highlights it: even the parts of government I don't particularly like has done more for the average person than business. Huh.

Now, a slightly more useful rebuttal would have been to point out that the interstate highway system was built at the request of corporations (most notably Standard Oil) who wanted to make cars a big business in the US but needed government to eat the cost of the most expensive, labor-intensive, and unprofitable piece of that dream (building the roads). Come on, I left that opening for you and you were too lazy to take it. Are you even trying?

TheHermit wrote:

Now, a slightly more useful rebuttal would have been to point out that the interstate highway system was built at the request of corporations (most notably Standard Oil) who wanted to make cars a big business in the US but needed government to eat the cost of the most expensive, labor-intensive, and unprofitable piece of that dream (building the roads).

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

The most genuine criticism of the U.S. government and people I can think of, is that it's like a girl in an abusive relationship, in need of a good smack upside the head every time she starts talking about how "he" can change.

Oh fuck, banks fucked up and now there's a recession, what do? Give them 700 bil.

Shit, our current medical system is a clusterfuck, do we change it? No, we just make it illegal not to participate in it and give the companies more money.

Psy-4 wrote:

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

The most genuine criticism of the U.S. government and people I can think of, is that it's like a girl in an abusive relationship, in need of a good smack upside the head every time she starts talking about how "he" can change.

Oh fuck, banks fucked up and now there's a recession, what do? Give them 700 bil.

Shit, our current medical system is a clusterfuck, do we change it? No, we just make it illegal not to participate in it and give the companies more money.

Watch where your rhetoric is going. Despite what I've said in this thread and probably lots of others, I don't hate corporations. It's just that they are very good at one thing to the exclusion of all else: turning a profit. Is this bad? Not inherently, no. But by a business standpoint US healthcare is a huge success. Have you seen how much money those guys make? Judge them by other metrics (life expectancy, general societal health, costs per person, etc) and they aren't going to match up to an organization whose first, last, and only priority isn't profit.

Besides, if you want to cut business completely out of the picture you need Communism. Which I'd be a huge proponent for, if you didn't have to ignore fundamental human nature to get it to work (ie, if the whole system didn't implode if applied to a group larger than 100 people or so).

The problem with the American healthcare system is not just that it is optional and privateised, but also that the health insurance companies are scumbags who will squirm out of paying up any way they can, and can refuse to support those with pre-existing conditions.

Currently, with optional Health Insurance and the companies turning down anybody with a pre-existing condition, people with Health Insurance are generally quite well-off, so the companies can easily charge a high price, and the hospitals can get away with charging a goddamn fortune too - they're hoping that their money will come from the Insurance companies, but it just means those without insurance have to take out a second morgage just to pay for a fractured bone.

If health insurance is compulsory, and the companies can't turn down pre-existing conditions, the companies will have more incentive to be competitive about their rates, and also will have to be more flexible about paying up. Otherwise people just won't buy their insurance; they'll get it from somebody else.

It doesn't SOUND great, but compare it to Car Insurance, which IS compulsory, and suddenly the market becomes a lot more competitive, which leads to lower prices and better service. The Health Insurance companies oppose the bill because they know they won't make as much money if everybody HAS to have health insurance by law. If they could have made MORE money with compulsory health insurance it would have happened about 20 years ago.

Actually health care insurance is pretty much one of the least profitable bits.

"People, you have two options - compulsory but affordable heathcare, or raised taxes!"

"Neither! We opt for an uncertain, unfair future!"

America's healthcare system is probably the worst-run in the world.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

"People, you have two options - compulsory but affordable heathcare, or raised taxes!"

These are not the options on the table, and you should be ashamed for involving yourself in another US domestic politics thread.

no taxation without representation hurf durf

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

The Health Insurance companies oppose the bill because they know they won't make as much money if everybody HAS to have health insurance by law. If they could have made MORE money with compulsory health insurance it would have happened about 20 years ago.

Quote :

Myth 2: Insurance companies hate this bill.

Fact: This bill is almost identical to the plan written by AHIP, the insurance company trade association, in 2009.
The original Senate Finance Committee bill was authored by a former Wellpoint vice president. Since Congress released the first of its health care bills on October 30, 2009, health care stocks have risen 28.35%.