"Obamacare" - The USA Hard Right vs. the NHS

People are retarded.

As someone who's on Medicare (due to disability), I just tend to point and laugh at the people screaming "OMG DEATH CAMPS FOR THE ELDERLY!" I was also somewhat disappointed (though not surprised) at Sarah Palin's little outburst about how, if the bill is passed, then her Down's Syndrome son will be killed because apparently, someone else gets to decide whether his 'quality of life' is worth keeping him alive. Which makes it EVIL! EVIL, I SAY!

In reality, what the elderly people seem to consider Death Camps are, in fact, a specific program that will allow them to talk to their doctor about what sort of measures they want taken should they become too sick to make important decisions (actually, such a program exists right now in most hospitals-it's known as DNR or Do Not Revive). My mother specifically conveyed her feelings about it to both my dad and her doctor before she had her last heart attack, which meant that when the CAT scan showed she'd had a massive stroke and would likely never regain consciousness, it was easier for my dad to just let nature take it's course than to have them hook her up to life support and wait till she finally had a CVA they couldn't revive her from.

Frankly, I'd sooner make that sort of decision for myself while I'm still relatively healthy than leave it up to my kids to have to make it after I have a stroke that leaves me in a persistant vegitative state.

As someone who, over the course of her life, has gone through long stretches where my family and myself had no health care at all, I figure nationalized health care is preferable to having to decide between whether you buy medication you really need or buy food (and yes, I've had to make that choice). It will mean that my oldest son can actually go to a doctor when he gets sick, instead of using the ER as a last-ditch refuge.

I imagine it will be messy, and there will be bugs in the system and parts that don't work out like they should, but I seem to recall from history books people going into the same sort of snit when the Government came up with the idea of pensions for the elderly, conveniently forgetting that, unless you managed to save up enough money to live on while you were young and capable of working, you basically ended up in the poor house once you retired. Or stuck with whatever kid was willing to take you in.

Clearing up some misinformation...

Straight statistics.

Miss Prince wrote:

Nobody knows what's in the fucking bill.

Quoted for truth.

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but for some of these crazier hardliners (and even some of the not-so-crazy ones), I don't believe it's actually about healthcare reform for them at all, or whatever the issue of the day happens to be. It's about the "ebil lib'rals" and doing however much damage to Obama and the Democrats they can, even if it's by making up bullshit.

As for DNRs, those aren't just for the elderly. My parents had to sign resuscitation orders when I was in a coma, and the last time I landed in the hospital with a nasty sinus infection and diabetic ketoacidosis, I had to sign one for myself. I'm nineteen.

My mother used to work as a financial officer for a hospital, which meant that she had to call insurance companies on a daily basis to get them to pay what they're supposed to on hospital bills. The companies were always trying to squirrel their way out of covering what somebody paid a monthly premium to be covered for. They would say that conditions were always pre-existing even if they weren't, to name a few. It was like the insurance people on the phone were trained to say "no, fuck you and die." Because everyone in her department had to deal with these issues on a daily basis, tensions were high. Hell, I'd be angry if I was fighting an uphill battle on the phone every 10 minutes too. But it got to where they even started to fight each other and it got nasty.

And yeah, count me among the people who've decided between medicine or an ER visit and say, food.

Nihilist wrote:

My mother used to work as a financial officer for a hospital, which meant that she had to call insurance companies on a daily basis to get them to pay what they're supposed to on hospital bills. The companies were always trying to squirrel their way out of covering what somebody paid a monthly premium to be covered for. They would say that conditions were always pre-existing even if they weren't, to name a few. It was like the insurance people on the phone were trained to say "no, fuck you and die." Because everyone in her department had to deal with these issues on a daily basis, tensions were high. Hell, I'd be angry if I was fighting an uphill battle on the phone every 10 minutes too. But it got to where they even started to fight each other and it got nasty.

And yeah, count me among the people who've decided between medicine or an ER visit and say, food.

Insurance companies are proof that the devil exists.

I agree that we need health care reform. Not health insurance reform, but honest-to-FSM health care reform.

This bill, while a step in the right direction, ain't gonna do jack.

For one thing, the "public option" (which may still be jettisoned to keep conservative Democrats on board) doesn't go into effect until 2013. In other words, it will help people further on down the line but for the people in the here and now...well, we're just SOL.

Not to mention that Republicans keep trying to slip "poison pill" amendments into the various bill drafts. The end-of-life counseling provision is already gone from the Senate bill, and may be killed in the House bill due to the complete misinterpretation of the facts about what it does.

Now Republicans are trying to slip a provision in banning private insurance from covering abortion (the public option will cover it, but not by tapping government funds).

And as for all the claims that "government care will be rationed" - what the hell do they think we have now? We have "irrational rationing" - some bean-counter in the depths of an insurance company decides whether it's cost-efficient to give you the requested treatment. And we have evidence that insurance companies hand out bonuses based on keeping costs down. And you keep costs down by denying treatment.

Say what you want about the military, but I think I'll cling to my Tricare for a bit longer, thankyouverymuch.

From what I've seen and heard about the NHS, I don't see a problem with having a similar system implemented. I don't know why all these people have their panties in a twist, nor do I care.

Lapin's Opinion: I'll take NHS over what we currently have. Our system sucks.

Having had to deal with the stupid insurance company only covering six months' worth of contact lenses (because, obviously, I'm only blind half the year), I support some change. I don't know if this bill can fix that particular bit of stupid, but I do say it's a step in the right direction. Way too many people don't have health insurance, the health insurance companies are much too adept at dodging their responsibilities, and health care is often too expensive to pay for out of pocket.

When I was uninsured, my doctor tried to give me discounted medical service, but his employer wouldn't allow it and made him charge full price. My parents had to pay for my medical care, and it wasn't cheap--I have a major depressive disorder and going off my medication tends to make very bad things happen. Now I have insurance, but the insurance company, for some reason, won't pay for the 40 mg Prozac pill for me (which is the amount I need each day), but will pay for two twenty mg pills--which makes absolutely no sense. Yes, this is the same insurance company that believes my eyesight is 20/20 half the year (actually, it's over 20/400--that's where the doctor's scale ends, and I'm off the chart--and I see very well in contacts, while glasses give me the impression I've just dropped acid). When I complained to the insurance company about their only covering half a year's worth of contacts, I was told that I didn't really need contacts (the DMV begs to differ), and I should be grateful that they're covering anything. Assholes.

Lady Anne wrote:

Having had to deal with the stupid insurance company only covering six months' worth of contact lenses (because, obviously, I'm only blind half the year), I support some change. I don't know if this bill can fix that particular bit of stupid, but I do say it's a step in the right direction. Way too many people don't have health insurance, the health insurance companies are much too adept at dodging their responsibilities, and health care is often too expensive to pay for out of pocket.

When I was uninsured, my doctor tried to give me discounted medical service, but his employer wouldn't allow it and made him charge full price. My parents had to pay for my medical care, and it wasn't cheap--I have a major depressive disorder and going off my medication tends to make very bad things happen. Now I have insurance, but the insurance company, for some reason, won't pay for the 40 mg Prozac pill for me (which is the amount I need each day), but will pay for two twenty mg pills--which makes absolutely no sense. Yes, this is the same insurance company that believes my eyesight is 20/20 half the year (actually, it's over 20/400--that's where the doctor's scale ends, and I'm off the chart--and I see very well in contacts, while glasses give me the impression I've just dropped acid). When I complained to the insurance company about their only covering half a year's worth of contacts, I was told that I didn't really need contacts (the DMV begs to differ), and I should be grateful that they're covering anything. Assholes.

Like I said, insurance companies are satan's little helpers.

I have to agree with Gyro. Even Tricare won't cover glasses/contacts. Not even for soldiers. It's not a necessity, according to the demon* I spoke with. Never mind that I can't see without corrective lenses. They're not a "necessity". But somehow my birth control is.

It boggles my mind.

*I refuse to believe that the creature on the phone was a human being. That was pure brimstone-eating, hellfire-breathing demon.

Here's Rep. Dingell's version of the healthcare reform act.* I dare anyone to find where in it it says they're going to kill off the olds or give tax money to illegal aliens.*People keep talking about "the Bill." There isn't "the Bill"; there are several "Bills." Eventually these will all be hammered together into "the Bill," and then there finally be something concrete for these teabagging ninnies to complain about.

I got health insurance through the college; and it sucks. I ended up dropping out of the semester because I was too depressed to move. I'd payed for 6 months of coverage, but because I dropped out of the semester, they won't cover the doctor's visits or medication for depression.

Insurance is a scam. Let there be universal free health care. I don't mind if taxes go up. That'd still be less expensive than insurance.

Gyro's Grillz wrote:

Seule wrote:

Sure, it will increase taxes, but this is sort of an important thing...

"My taxes are paying for poor people's food health care!"

Yes, there actually people that think like this.

Of course there are. Official policy in the US these days is "if you're not rich, you're not human."

I think wider state healthcare in America could only be a good thing. The current NHS in England is a bit (just a little bit) of a shambles, but only due to fairly recent mis-management, stupid shit like internal markets, being screwed with the Private Finance Initiative bollocks, and political headline grabbers that achieve little and waste money, (as well as massive health cost of cutting of essential cleaning etc staff to give Trust executives stupidly large paypackets and pay for other levels of less useful administration. "They've all got infections from unsanitary wards? Well, fuck 'em, I've got a villa in spain!"). Long as any American system is more similar to the model in Scotland which - since getting to run the NHS pretty much their own way - managed to reduce/mitigate most if not all of the bollocks, then they'll maybe be all right.

As for insurance companies, I'm sure they'll be just fine. Private healthcare makes a mint in the UK - Check out the figures for BUPA's UK arm in 2007, as the quickest figures I could back up - , and chances are people who can afford health insurance (or get it as a job perk) would continue to do so, while the people who couldn't afford it wouldn't have paid much anyway.

The private insurance companies in the UK, like most other big business, know who to buy lunch and big match tickets for in the Civil Service and ministerial roles (Ahem, I mean "Intensively lobby") and I'm sure the same methods of cheerful corruption will fit in just fine over there.

Why is the American Hard Right so opposed anyway? Is it just because it's Obama, or partisan reasons, or something else? Seems like healthier uneducated redneck trash would make it to the polling booth easier to vote for Fat Republican #37.

Why are we womyn spending our hard-earned money supporting those useless men and their AIDS?

Lapin wrote:

I have to agree with Gyro. Even Tricare won't cover glasses/contacts. Not even for soldiers. It's not a necessity, according to the demon* I spoke with. Never mind that I can't see without corrective lenses. They're not a "necessity". But somehow my birth control is.

It boggles my mind.

My eyesight is so bad, I can't even see cars on horizon at dusk which puts me at a risk of getting hit.

I'm with Fitchy in the hating of the criticising the NHS in here. Sure, the system isn't brilliant, but it's entirely free from cradle to grave (except prescription fees, but I'll happily pay £7 for medicine that costs far more than that).

I was talking about this with a friend last night, and we wonder if maybe we British are far more OK with our system because we uphold the sanctity of the queue. We expect to have to wait to see the doctor because other people were there first or are iller. Having been to the States, your queuing system is shambolic, and with a little money you can jump the queue.

Miss Prince wrote:

Also SOCIALISMSOCIALISMSOCIALISM NONE OF YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT SOCIALISM MEANS BUT IT'S A SCARY WORD THAT MAKES YOU THINK OF EVIL RUSSIANS and we're ignoring the fact that the U.S. is already a fairly socialist country and that national healthcare is not the same thing as socialized medicine.

Most of the people who take that line of thought seriously ARE aware that the US is already fairly socialist, and stop just short of wishing they could go back in time to assassinate FDR.

Lapin wrote:

Say what you want about the military, but I think I'll cling to my Tricare for a bit longer, thankyouverymuch.

I love how Darwinian Tricare is.

"Oh wow, I'm sorry your ATV flipped and rolled over you, breaking all the ribs on your right side, wrenching your arm badly enough to need a sling, and a black eye to top it all off! Did you attend the ATV Safety Briefing? No?! FUCK YOU, YOU'RE PAYING FOR THIS OUT OF POCKET, DIRTBAG."

Lapin wrote:

I have to agree with Gyro. Even Tricare won't cover glasses/contacts. Not even for soldiers. It's not a necessity, according to the demon* I spoke with. Never mind that I can't see without corrective lenses. They're not a "necessity". But somehow my birth control is.

You can get issued glasses, you just won't like them. If they don't cover contacts, it's probably for the likelihood of eye infection, or something like that.

Oh, and they will cover corrective surgery like Lasik, and some other, better new techniques. The only catch is that you have to be on a base that has it. Hell, they used to cover teeth whitening until everyone saw Extreme Makeover and wanted the process, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Also, your birth control is a necessity because it prevents any more dependents from being added to the system.

Knorg wrote:

Why is the American Hard Right so opposed anyway? Is it just because it's Obama, or partisan reasons, or something else? Seems like healthier uneducated redneck trash would make it to the polling booth easier to vote for Fat Republican #37.

It's pretty much all three at once - there are some who do truly oppose it on the merits (those would be your libertarians and insurance industry folks), some who oppose it because of partisanship, and some who just oppose it because they really don't like Barack Obama.

Unfortunately, the latter two groups vastly outnumber the former. I mean, I think I've lost track of the number of death threats Democratic congressmen have received over this one bill.

Knorg wrote:

Why is the American Hard Right so opposed anyway? Is it just because it's Obama, or partisan reasons, or something else? Seems like healthier uneducated redneck trash would make it to the polling booth easier to vote for Fat Republican #37.

Most of them probably have vested interests (either stocks or campaign money) in private insurers (who are running rampant with even more blatant abuse than what you've described), health conglomerates, pharmaceuticals, etc.

And the true Hard Right (not everyone on the right, but these particular loud few, as advertised chiefly by Rush Limbaugh, The Supreme Evil Being) is composed of the excessively wealthy whom such policies benefit at the expense of everyone else, and there is a subtle but very real belief in the poor as sub-human. They enjoy leading said poor, un/undereducated people into voting against their own interests for the benefit of the wealthy, but they also don't care much if a mass of them die of malaria.

Even with the NHS, you can still get Health Insurance. Saying that the Health Insurance thing would collapse is stupid.

Besides, the Health Insurance people are scumbags. If there's the slightest little thing about your life that you haven't told them about, then you get ill, even if it's not related at all, they won't pay up.

I am filled with DISGUST at the people screaming how WRONG free healthcare for all is.

"WE HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE SO FUCK OFF AND DIE!"

Why don't they just say they don't give a fuck about poor people and be done with it? Socialism is not undemocratic, you lot. It's just a different type of democracy.

"NO! NOOOOO! AMERICA IS PERFECT! DO YOU WANT OUR SUPERIOR COUNTRY TO DETERIOATE INTO A MASS OF CORRUPTION AND COMMUNISM?! SCUM! SCUUUUUUM!"

And then they do the Funky Attention Groove, screaming about how Health Insurance is perfectly affordable. Nobody ever actually points out the many people who can't afford Health Insurance. Saying bullshit about how no free healthcare is better than limited free healthcare.

If the rich people were so willing to pay for their Healthcare before, surely they'll be fine with continuing to do so now. But NOOOO, it's not about them, it's about the stocks and shares they have coming from people who can just barely afford Health Insurance.

Harley, you're a walking argument against NHS, because they clearly fail to fix whatever's wrong with you, or at least keep you quarantined.

Spoiler:

Penguin wrote:

Harley, you're a walking argument against NHS, because they clearly fail to fix whatever's wrong with you, or at least keep you quarantined.

Spoiler:

No, Penguin, putting a funny, laughing face there does not make it funny. Especially when I had another Epileptic Fit last night and I'm covered in bruises.

And I'm still filled with disgust at people who think free healthcare is a bad thing because they can afford to pay for it. This is the far right, remember? The people who think abortion is murder. And then they show their true, smug, self-righteous faces and show that they really don't give a shit about you once you're out of the womb. Masturbating is murder but protesting against healthcare to save the lives of the poor is just fine.

"SHUT UP! AMERICA IS PERFECT AS IT IS!" *does the Funky Attention Groove* "IF AMERICA CHANGES EVERYTHING WILL GO WRONG!!! POOR PEOPLE ARE SCUM!!!"

Here's some numbers:

18,000: The number of adults in the U.S. who die every year because they cannot get proper health care due to a lack of medical insurance, according to a study by the Institute of Medicine.

14,000: The number of people who lose their health insurance coverage every day, according to the Washington Post.

2/3: The number of bankruptcies filed in the U.S. due to medical debt.

3/4: Of the number of medical debt bankruptcies, the ones who had medical insurance.

$80: The amount that could have saved 12-year-old Deamonte Driver's life. Driver died of a infection caused by a toothache. His family had no insurance, and had lost their Medicaid coverage.

$11.5 million: The average annual salary of an insurance company CEO.