SO it begins.....

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A Toronto couple have revealed that they are raising their third child as ‘genderless’ in order to allow the baby to decide on its own gender.

Great idea......

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Their sons, Jazz, five, and Kio, two, are encouraged to make their own decisions. The boys, who like to have long hair and wear dresses, are often mistaken for girls.

They are “unschooled” – a movement of homeschooling which allows children to plan their own days without tests or homework.

..... Of course let children decide what they want to do and when, it's simply brilliant?!

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The couple decided to bring up Storm without a gender after Jazz suffered an “intense” time over people’s reaction to his appearance

.....................

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Their decision was reinforced after Mr Stocker read the 1978 book X: A Fabulous Child’s Story about a child with no gender who rises above bullying.

pokerface.jpeg

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Mrs Witterick, currently a full-time mother, told the newspaper: “When the baby comes out, even the people who love you the most and know you so intimately, the first question they ask is, ‘Is it a girl or a boy?’”Mr Stocker, a teacher, said: “If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.”

Orly? I wonder how they're going to explain anatomy to the kid and remain "neutral", oh wait the kids teach themselves......
[URL="http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/05/24/toronto-parents-raise-genderless-baby/"]link[/URL]

Quote :

"They called parents who make choices for their children 'obnoxious'"

What art school did these people crawl out from? I'm sure they're the people who also want all sports to be easy and have everyone marked as a winner. Who despise kids who run around with slingshots or throw snowballs at each other.

Wanting your kids to be independant is one thing.

Demanding they choose their own bloody gender is another.

What in the world do these people class as an 'intense' time? Lord knows how these kids, put upon to make such decisions so early on in life, will turn out.

And how does a child who cannot yet speak or identify colours properly, choose their own gender?

Are these kids actually going to be able to read when they're eight? You know, what with being allowed to run amok all day.

Quote :

The couple’s 5-year-old son, Jazz, “keeps his hair long, preferring to wear it in three braids,” his favorite color is pink and “he loves to paint his fingernails and wears a sparkly pink stud in one ear.” What’s more, the reporter describes a booklet Jazz wrote titled, “Gender Explorer.” Inside, it reads: “Help girls do boy things. Help boys do girl things. Let your kid be whoever they are!” [URL="http://politicaljunkiemom.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/what-liberal-child-abuse-looks-like-the-genderless-child/"]link[/URL]

It just doesn't seem like an issue a child of their age should have. As for the kids booklet seems more like things he heard his parent saying over and over. Brainwashing him to believe thats what he wants. I don't have a problem with the clothing or the nail polish, let the kids have fun it's just the over all agenda the parents have.

I don't know about taking their kids from them, but somehow they're proving there's such a thing as being too open-minded about things. They could use a knock on the head, and somebody telling them, "They're just CHILDREN, dammit!"

Yes, social standards are set by society, and there's no special reason why boys can't wear dresses other than society says so... but society DOES say so and in order to live normal lives they do still need to conform to certain standards that society sets. By all means, let your sons play tea-party. Let your girls play cops and robbers. Let your sons prefer pink and your daughters like blue.

But your five year old boy was picked on because he wore dresses for a reason. Because he wore dresses. There are limits.

They shouldn't have to have such responsibilities piled on their heads at the age of 5 and 2. They should be learning through play and brightly coloured balls and wooden blocks in holes in this and that. Later on in their lives, maybe. But upon the moment of their birth?

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

They shouldn't have to have such responsibilities piled on their heads at the age of 5 and 2. They should be learning through play and brightly coloured balls and wooden blocks in holes in this and that. Later on in their lives, maybe. But upon the moment of their birth?

I agree, though i fail to see why they shouldn't have their children taken away. They're doing more harm than goood, besides it's selfish for them to put this kind of strain on their children for a book they read as children.

Oh the horror, allowing a child to choose his/her gender and which specific traits to display! They should rear their kids like everyone else, forcing them to fit the paradigm of masculine = best and feminine = crap, a binary that encourages men to dismiss, objectify and batter women. That's what good parents do.

Except for the unschooled thing, I'm not really seeing an issue. Kids are happy, parents are happy, no harm no foul.

HOWEVER

Unschooled. No. Just no. Do you know what unschooled is? That's where you allow your children to learn what they want to learn with no structure whatsoever. Children actually need things like school to teach them how to act in society later. Things like getting along with people you don't like, completing tasks that you really didn't want to do, but needed to be done, responsibility for yourself and your performance, etc. Even home-schooling provides these things. (Most home-school parents make the effort to put their kids in programs for socializing)

Trouble is, you can't just say, "Hmm, I think I'll have a little from that gender... but I'll have some of the things from that gender too."

We have seperate toilets and changing rooms still. The genuinely gender neutral people are often ostracised. You can't say, "Hmmm, I don't want to be picked on by the boys so I'll wear trousers... but I'm legally a girl so I'll dress in the girl's changing rooms... and play sports with the girls because I can win more easily... but I hate shaving so I'll not shave... but girl's underwear is more comfortable and nobody can tell so I'll wear that... hmmm... the boys like me but think I'm weird, while the girls think I'm a disgusting pervert."

Chances are the 5 year old didn't like getting used to his first big-boy pants and liked the loose feel and bright colours of the girl's clothes... but while we've reached the point where girls can wear short hair and boys clothes, we haven't quite reached the other end of the scale just yet.

And think of all the legal forms, "Boy or girl?" "Hmmm... I haven't decided yet." "Have you checked your underwear?" "But trousers are itchy and I don't like them!"

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Trouble is, you can't just say, "Hmm, I think I'll have a little from that gender... but I'll have some of the things from that gender too."

Says who? God?

Good for them! I see people all up in arms about the whole "Unschooled" thing but honestly, what will happen to these kids if they're taken to any kind of actual school? If the parents were strict and loving enough and let them experience the outside world it could work--

Quote :

"They called parents who make choices for their children 'obnoxious'"

Oh wait no this is going to be a gigantic failure!!

e, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It would be nice if society was that open-minded but it's not. Which box do you tick? currently there's no 'Other' option. I think these parents are setting themselves up for some huge problems.

Their kids too.

There's no such thing as a "Gender Neutral" toilet. And how can a baby be expected to choose its own gender?

Furthermore, what happens if they pick 'girl' when they're technically a boy? How odd... they're attracted to the wrong gender... they can't have sex... or get married... everybody sees them as a freak...

I think it's a good idea, but not the unschooling. The child now can grow outside society and its constricting gender stereotypes. I think the reason some people are complaining is because, while its safe for a girl to act as she wants to, boys are expected to conform to masculinity, and they don't want Storm, if the baby is a boy, to catch 'Teh Gay'.

Well, if there's a way to turn a child gay this is it... but I'm more concerned about what'll happen to the children. Because quite simply, other children will think them strange because they haven't been raised with the idea that a child can CHOOSE your gender.

"I'm a boy."

"Where's your penis?"

"Yeah, I've always been confused about that too."

It sounds lovely for childhood, encouraging the idea that genders are equal and you can do and be and wear anything you like. Unfortunately some people just aren't thinking about the long-term social ramifications for the kids.

What's gonna happen when these children hit puberty? Suddenly their clothes don't fit, their sexual desires are entirely different, they get dirty looks in public toilets, and everybody thinks they're a freak.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Well, if there's a way to turn a child gay this is it.

Stop right there.

Goddamn you Harley. It's as if you enjoy reminding people what a piece of shit you are.

This sort of thing never ends well.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Oh the horror, allowing a child to choose his/her gender

So it's a choice now?

I posted this on another forum:

"While this might seem a little extreme to people, I have to say I like this family's approach. Simply not telling people the child's biological sex is probably the best way to keep outsiders from trying to impress gender roles on Storm. Granted, this will likely only go so far, but if Storm gets an unbiased start, the kid's chances of developing a self free of stifling gender norms are much higher.

As for the comments on the article originally linked: Just the assortment of ignorance I was expecting. Because not keeping a biologically male kid from liking pink and playing with dolls = making them gay *rolls eyes* Not that there would be a problem with the kid actually being gay, but I don't see how having a penis precludes you from enjoying dolls or from wearing certain colors, or how these activities are supposed to influence one's sexual preferences. This is exactly the kind of bull these parents are trying to prevent, the way I understand it.

I don't see it as so much of a political statement or an experiment than an attempt at empowering the child. In my eyes, they aren't taking anything away from Storm by not disclosing Storm's sex, they are giving the child freedom to be whatever Storm wants to be, without interference from marketers, strangers or members from the extended family they might only be in contact with three or four times a year."

THAT said, I do consider the "unschooling" thing to be completely irresponsible (because really... the kid doesn't want to learn addition, so s/he doesn't have to and can go look up, say, dinosaurs or how toothpaste gets into the tube? Yeeeeeeah, REALLY smart choice there), as well as highly ironic since it seems that the father is a teacher. Homeschooling with an approved curriculum, okay. But this? No. That said, this doesn't really have anything to do with the thing most people are ragging their mouths over in this, when quite honestly, this and not the "we aren't telling people whether our child is biologically male or female" thing should be on the chopping block here, especially since the parents aren't even keeping the kid's sex a secret from hir or hir brothers, just from other people who really shouldn't have any damn business in telling the child, "That's not how a boy/girl behaves/dresses/plays."

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Goddamn you Harley. It's as if you enjoy reminding people what a piece of shit you are.

I'm just saying what I think...

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Goddamn you Harley. It's as if you enjoy reminding people what a piece of shit you are.

I'm just saying what I think...

And I'm saying what I think. You're in no position to criticize sexual behavior, little Miss Furry. How often do you touch yourself thinking of Sonic the Hedgehog and Transformers porn? You think you have the right to criticize how these parents are educating their children on gender and sexual identity?

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Goddamn you Harley. It's as if you enjoy reminding people what a piece of shit you are.

I'm just saying what I think...

And I'm saying what I think. You're in no position to criticize sexual behavior, little Miss Furry. How often do you touch yourself thinking of Sonic the Hedgehog and Transformers porn? You think you have the right to criticize how these parents are educating their children on gender and sexual identity?

Actually Pierre, I don't touch myself at all. How often do you actually consider that there's no 'Gender Neutral' box to tick on legal forms for a reason? You know, because you're either male or female? Toilet seat up or down? In or out? And do your genitals house babies, or just gush their seed?

Stereotyped gender roles is one thing.

Deciding that your baby can choose its gender is another - because whatever gender it chooses to be, it's still going to be pushed into the stereotypes for that gender.

And what's their reasoning for this?

"Hmmm... our son is wearing dresses and being picked on after we let him do anything he wants. What went wrong? Oh, it's OBVIOUS! Our son wants to be a girl! We should have made him choose which gender he'll become! That will definitely have an effect when puberty kicks in!"

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Pierre Gringoire wrote:

Goddamn you Harley. It's as if you enjoy reminding people what a piece of shit you are.

I'm just saying what I think...

And I'm saying what I think. You're in no position to criticize sexual behavior, little Miss Furry. How often do you touch yourself thinking of Sonic the Hedgehog and Transformers porn? You think you have the right to criticize how these parents are educating their children on gender and sexual identity?

Actually Pierre, I don't touch myself at all. How often do you actually consider that there's no 'Gender Neutral' box to tick on legal forms for a reason? You know, because you're either male or female? Toilet seat up or down? In or out? And do your genitals house babies, or just gush their seed?

Stereotyped gender roles is one thing.

Deciding that your baby can choose its gender is another - because whatever gender it chooses to be, it's still going to be pushed into the stereotypes for that gender.

And what's their reasoning for this?

"Hmmm... our son is wearing dresses and being picked on after we let him do anything he wants. What went wrong? Oh, it's OBVIOUS! Our son wants to be a girl! We should have made him choose which gender he'll become! That will definitely have an effect when puberty kicks in!"

Well that explains a lot.

Being pushed into society's stereotypes of gender roles is a good thing now? Of course it is! Falling lockstep into society's expectations did wonders for the Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffrage, the Gay Rights Movement, and political and social movements everywhere? Why bother changing society's expectations? Just roll over and die. Is that what you want?

these kids aren't doing what they want, sure messing with girls clothes is fine. But it's the parents that are feeding their kids this b/s rather than letting them be kids and choose who they want to be when they grow up.

Quote :

The couple’s 5-year-old son, Jazz, “keeps his hair long, preferring to wear it in three braids,” his favorite color is pink and “he loves to paint his fingernails and wears a sparkly pink stud in one ear.” What’s more, the reporter describes a booklet Jazz wrote titled, “Gender Explorer.” Inside, it reads: “Help girls do boy things. Help boys do girl things. Let your kid be whoever they are!” [URL="http://politicaljunkiemom.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/what-liberal-child-abuse-looks-like-the-genderless-child/"]link[/URL]

You Know the parents have been feeding this crap to the kid and made him write down what they were sayin into the booklet to give to the news reporter. It's way too well structered for the kid to have come up with. I mean come one "Gender explorer" wtf. :rage:

I was born and brought up female. I knew I was a girl, although I never really liked pink until Lady Penelope came along. I have always been biologically, genetically, mentally and in every other possible way a female. I am and was very fortunate in that there was no possible misinterpretation.

However... in 1965, aged 9, I went to the local newsagents to order a new comic - TV21 (for anyone who doesn't know about TV21, look it up. It had an enormous effect on me, which lasts until today) and was told by the arsehole behind the counter: "Sorry, that's a boys' comic." I was horrified. I'd never experienced such a thing before. This was a comic that dealt with topics I liked - science fiction, and Gerry Anderson's productions. When I told them about it, my mother and father steamed into that shop and gave the shopkeeper a bollocking that he never forgot. And I got my comic, and a life-long love of science fiction. I still adore Gerry Anderson's shows today.

I think I was making a point about gender/sex/preference choice somewhere in there. To a lesser extent than the children in the OP's article, I was allowed to make my own choices about the kind of entertainment and reading I preferred. This is a right that should be granted to everyone - to be yourself. It does have to be tempered with an understanding that society at large may not be tolerant of those who don't fit within its shibboleths - I am a naturist, but wouldn't even consider going to the supermarket naked - but I applaud this family and their open-mindedness. Up to a point...

Kids have to be taught boundaries, and the basic requirements of "accepted" society. Therefore, they must learn to read, to do basic arithmetic, learn that it's not nice to punch/kick/murder/eat other people... and that other people can be arseholes who will be cruel to people who are "different". Other than that - go for it!

I think society would have an easier time accepting transgender / nongender folks if we had a better vocabulary to work with. Our language really only allows for binary he/she/it/they. We would need to invent a new, easy to use, non-gendered word for people who want to be addressed as such.

I know many people who want to be respectful and courteous of gays and transgendered people, but they don't know what word to use in what context. (Ok, so this person is MTF, do you refer to them as "he", "She" or just sort of balk and shy away out of ambarassment?)

And it doesn't always work to have each person come up with whatever they, personally wnat to be called. That's still confusing to common folk. one person may still want to be called "He" until they are post-op, then "She" One person may want to be called "She" regardless of looks or lifestyle. And saying the wrong thing to the wrong person just offends everyone.

Also, trying to use long-ass politically correct statements isn't really functional. "He, She, Person-who-wishes-to-be-adressed-without-gender" just doesn't work in common english. People will invent a one-syllable word and use it for you because they're lazy and have limited character space on Twitter.

It's the same as asking which one of a gay couple is the "mom or dad". Some people just want a way to differentiate parents without saying their name. Not as a referral of strict gender roles. Does "Other parent" or "daddy 2" work? Even when trying not to offend people, with a lack of common language, it's like treading on eggshells for the uncomfortable, unfamiliar situations that people used to a heteronormative society are trying to get used to.

Jesus Christ Harley I will beat you to death with Grunge's corpse

just shut up

just shut your fucking mouth

I would cheer on these parents if they didn't then show off their "We should have never been parents!" card. Their kids are NEVER going to fit in if they keep it up, and I'm not talking about the whole gender thing.

Of course if a more normal couple tried it it wouldn't be in the news because they're not crazy and calling the newspapers to tell them how they're going to raise their kid without a gender.