Gaycatfightrandomcelebritydiesblahblah... Meanwhile, North Korea threatens war?

Lady Anne wrote:

Bamshalam wrote:

the history of war tells us that a slightly smaller force which is highly trained and technologically advanced will run right over a large untrained rabble.

Are you sure about that? Because it sure seems like the colonies' rabble kicked the butts of the well-trained British during the American Revolution.

With the help of the French, who were trained.

Mae Bedlam wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Bamshalam wrote:

the history of war tells us that a slightly smaller force which is highly trained and technologically advanced will run right over a large untrained rabble.

Are you sure about that? Because it sure seems like the colonies' rabble kicked the butts of the well-trained British during the American Revolution.

With the help of the French, who were trained.

Also, the Americans weren't untrained. A cursory reading of Revolutionary War history tells us that Washington preferred a small group of regulars over a huge militia: only 17,000 troops compared to a European average of 50,000 or more.

Mafiosa wrote:

Hey VB I volunteered in a preschool/elementary school for 5 years does than mean I'm qualified to argue about kids and be right about everything I say?

You've got 5 years of experience working around kids? Yes, that makes you more qualified to give an educated opinion on childcare or behavior than most around here, who are childless teenagers with little to no experience with kids.

However, five years of volunteering isn't quite on the same level as five years of clinical experience working with vets and animal behaviorists, as well as experts in wildlife, zoo and exotic animal medicine, husbandry and rehabilitation. Oh, and a BA in Animal Science. Yes, I think that makes me the most qualified person here to give an opinion on animal-related issues.

Anyway, Sloth, here you are.
Revealing an unprecedented level of concern in Moscow over Pyongyang's increasing belligerence, officials said that a series of precautionary steps was being taken near Russia's border with North Korea...

China airs worry about North Korea after talks

President Barack Obama extended U.S. economic sanctions against North Korea for another year Wednesday, saying the North's possession of "weapons-usable fissile material" and its proliferation risk "continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat" to the United States

Three nations, all worried. One teenage stoner, unconcerned.

Quote :

...a series of precautionary steps was being taken near Russia's border
with North Korea, but insisted that no military measures were being
considered."We are not talking about stepping up military
efforts but rather about measures in case a military conflict, perhaps
with the use of nuclear weapons, flares up on the Korean peninsula," an
unidentified security source told the Interfax news agency.

Quote :

Lieutenant-General Ma Xiaotian did not announce new steps against Pyongyang. But he continued China's recent practice of openly airing worries about its isolated neighbor

They don't sound terribly worried. They just seem to be acknowledging N.K. with a nod and placating their citizens by expressing "worry" but not doing shit about it.

The U.S. article is irritatingly wishy-washy. They can't decide what they think. And they quote Obama as saying they pose a "great and terrible danger" and imply he means to the U.S. He doesn't. In fact I think they may have misquoted because I can't even find that quote on the White House website.

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North Korea's actions endanger the people of Northeast Asia, they are a
blatant violation of international law, and they contradict North
Korea's own prior commitments.

Quote :

Another U.S. defense official said he tended to doubt reports that the
Kang Nam was carrying nuclear-related equipment, saying the information
officials had received seemed to indicate the cargo was conventional
munitions.

Mafiosa wrote:

And they quote Obama as saying they pose a "great and terrible danger" and imply he means to the U.S. He doesn't. In fact I think they may have misquoted because I can't even find that quote on the White House website.

I found the same quote in something like nine different sources, and one that was longer and contained the full account of what he said. But I'm not going back and looking through them to find it. Sloth asked for articles where China and Russia voiced concern over N.K. and I provided them. You can write them off as "not terribly worried" or not, as you like. I'm positive Sloth will. I think is dishonest in the extreme however to take direct quotes and dismiss them with, "Well they say they're worried, but they're really not."

I only wish I could find the one I read three weeks ago where Russia stated plans to shoot any missile fired from N.K. out of the air, which definitely falls under "military measures". But three weeks in cyberspace means it's lost in the bowels of obscurity.

Quote :

I found the same quote in something like nine different sources

Which is seriously weird because

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I swear to god, it's not there.

I might be looking at the wrong release, but maybe AP misquoted or something.

Edit: What the fuck, I found the source of the quote but it's from May and referring to Iraq. Here.

... the fuck? :suspect:

VB wrote:

... the fuck? :suspect:

I do not even know.

Way to go, news industry. I hate to beat this dead horse but...fear mongering. Sounds like they're trying to rile people up.

VB wrote:

[
President Barack Obama extended U.S. economic sanctions against North Korea for another year Wednesday, saying the North's possession of "weapons-usable fissile material" and its proliferation risk "continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat" to the United States

Well, let's see here:

Quote :

...insisted that no military measures were being considered.

Nope.

Quote :

Lieutenant-General Ma Xiaotian did not announce new steps against Pyongyang. But he continued China's recent practice of openly airing worries about its isolated neighbor.

Nope.

Quote :

Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, called for a "tough" United Nations Security Council resolution but hinted that Moscow would not back any new sanctions against Pyongyang

Double nope.

"Expressing concerns" =/= imminent threat of war. If you're trying to say, "But see, China and Russia don't like this!" then you've succeeded in communicating something that everyone here knows already. Diplomats will express 'concerns' over all manner of things. For instance, this article uses that exact same wording to communicate the international community's displeasure over the ratification of some political charter in the government of Thailand - are we gonna start bloviating about that now?

The closest I can get is this:

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"We are not talking about stepping up military efforts but rather about measures in case a military conflict, perhaps with the use of nuclear weapons, flares up on the Korean peninsula," an unidentified security source told the Interfax news agency.

...But even that (which shows no military measures being taken) is immediately followed by:

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The measures being taken are likely primarily to involve emergency precautions in the event of radioactive contamination in the far-eastern regions of Russia close to the North Korean border.

...So I still find no quotes from anyone saying, 'We are worried about a North Korean attack against us', just a simple precaution to keep toxic fallout from crossing the border. Saying, 'We are taking precautions' doesn't even come close to threatening imminent war, or even the likelihood of same. The United States 'takes measures' in response to China's military tests, including much of the same sanctioning that's going on now (source). But tell me: if the United States is concerned and takes 'measures', am I to take this as a sign of a coming war between China and the States? I kind of doubt it.

Okay, so you got me on one point: China and Russia are 'expressing concerns'. Said 'concerns' seem to involve worry about fallout and, in China's words, 'causing us too much trouble'. No threat of an actual attack coming from North Korea. Also, remember my question was:

Quote :

Of course, if you can link me to any news articles that DO suggest that China and Russia are going to the UN and suggesting that an attack is imminent

I also said

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Also, the Chinese never said anything about an attack, they were only worried that "the North Koreans are causing us too much trouble,". There was nothing about an imminent nuclear assault.

Well, they're worried about a lot of things, including North Korea causing a ruckus and toxicity from nuclear tests. One thing that they are apparently not worried about is the threat of war right over the horizon - which, if past history is any indication, means lots of economic sanctions and yelling at people over the table at the UN. In other words, same old, same old.

Nihilist wrote:

VB: so where does your veterinary experience play
into this? It accompanies your credibility everywhere. WHERE DOES
STICKING YOUR FINGER UP A DOG'S ASS APPLY HERE

Absolutely nothing. I was replying to Mafi's claim that I always act as though I'm right. I was just pointing out that I usually don't get involved in wank unless it involves an animal, so the majority of the time I am. This and the music thread back on the old boards are the only times in recent memory I can think of that I have gotten involved in any form of non-animal related wank.

Sloth wrote:

Okay, so you got me on one point: China and Russia are 'expressing concerns'. Also, remember my question was:

Quote :

Of course, if you can link me to any news articles that DO suggest that China and Russia are going to the UN and suggesting that an attack is imminent

Well, as long as we're being that technical, let's expand that quote:

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But I have a sneaking suspicion you just pulled it out of your ass.

At which, I challenge you to quote me where I said that either country claimed that an attack was imminent. Honestly, if you're going to pull the strawman card and constantly claim that I'm putting words in your mouth, the least you could do is refrain from doing the same. I have only claimed that Russia and China have expressed their concerns over the situation to the U.N. I have provided articles to back that up. Which you have dismissed because if they were truly concerned, they would be taking military action.

Regardless of the fact that both of these countries have a long held, strict policy of non-provocation as the only way of dealing with N.K. And the fact that both countries are in close proximity to N.K. and would have to be the ones to deal with N.K. if they did choose to take action. And the fact that recently N.K. announced that it could consider boarding one of their ships as a declaration of war. What do you think they would make of Russia putting troops along their border?

Sloth wrote:

Bamshalam wrote:

Sloth wrote:

the history of war tells us that a slightly smaller force which is highly trained and technologically advanced will run right over a large untrained rabble.

I hate picking out single sentences in an entire argument, but I don't think that this is necessarily true. The Russian Army in WWII stands out to me as a major counterpoint; though they may not have been particularly untrained, their numbers played one of the hugest roles in them defeating Germany.

That said, it really doesn't apply to this situation given the other reasons you stated. I just wanted t point that out.

Russia's army was NOT that untrained. During the second half of the war the Red Army was an absolute machine - also, you must remember that although they were somewhat less advanced than Germany, the gap was nowhere near as big as it is between South Korea and North Korea. And the numbers gap was massive: although the Red Army won, their final casualty count was greater than that of any other country in WWII - in fact, more than the rest of the entire European Theater combined!

Yes, I remember that; I always interpreted that as meaning that the Russian army was large to a near disposable extent: regardless of how many troops you threw at it, there would still always be more Russian soldiers coming.
Granted, there were a frillion other factors that led to Germany's defeat, from Hitler's piss-poor planning giving Russia a huge amount of time to prepare and Russian winters being No Joke, but I did think that the sheer size of the Russian army played a huge part in their victory.

Sloth wrote:

For another counterpoint, look up Winter War on Wikipedia: a small force of Finns devastated a Russian army more than twice their size. Here's a graphic that sums it up well:

Spoiler:

This=true. In my zest to nitpick that single sentence I also forgot about the Sino-Japanese and Russio-Japanese wars, both of which ended with huge nations with euqally huge armies getting their asses handed to them by Japan. Granted, Japan (much like Russian winters,) are also No Joke, so that's to be expected.

Sloth wrote:

PS: please don't think I'm jumping on you for contradicting me.

Absolutely not! I love being able to discuss things plainly with people in a way that doesn't involve needless butthurt snarking, and I can count the people on this board who are good at it on one hand. (Speaking of which, where the hell is Mad Monkey? Did no one collect him?

Sloth wrote:

You raised a valid point, but I feel that the situation is different for a number of reasons.

Bamshalam wrote:

That said, it really doesn't apply to this situation given the other reasons you stated. I just wanted t point that out.

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

The Russian Army wasn't "slightly" smaller.

They
were MASSIVE. It was like Master Chief trying to fight against The
Flood, except when you die you don't respawn at the last
chackpoint.

Oh, Halo.

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

Japan was really the only of the four original
Axis powers that was even marginally competent. The Italians were
hopeless, and the Russians and Germans where hampered by their leader's
mutually inability to command a military. The latter could kind of be
seen in the battles between the two, where they basically threw
themselves at each other, resulting in bloodbaths.

Dude, no. Back at the beginning of the war, before Hitler went crazy,
Germany was kicking ass all over the place. Hitler himself may
have been a shitty tactician, but the people he put in charge of making
those decisions were, again, No Joke.

Lady Anne wrote:

That, and the fact that he who shall not be named
for fear of violating Godwin's law forgot about Russia's winter, which
also kicked Napoleon's butt.

You can always use our convenient :heetlar: smily.

VB wrote:

At which, I challenge you to quote me where I said that either country claimed that an attack was imminent.

You will recall that I already acknowledged in most of my posts in the thread that China and Russia are 'concerned'. My entire point was that there was no evidence of imminent attack. I'll re-quote:

Quote :

I can't find any evidence that China and Russia are running to the UN going 'Oh no, they're serious this time!'. I couldn't find a single reference to China or Russia being worried. Hell, the only article I found that even vaguely implied that point (which is here) stated that the experts they consulted do not 'expect China to take any significant action unless it determines that North Korea is a drag on the economy.' Also, the Chinese never said anything about an attack, they were only worried that "the North Koreans are causing us too much trouble,". There was nothing about an imminent nuclear assault. In other words, it's all economic posturing still.

I used 'imminent attack' constantly throughout every single paragraph, and you still vehemently disagreed. If you weren't disagreeing with China or Russia being afraid of an imminent attack, then what was it? Is all this really to convince me that both countries are 'concerned' in some degree, which I already stated independently in a number of different posts?

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Which you have dismissed because if they were truly concerned, they would be taking military action.

Not only because they are not taking military action, but because they are also refusing to push for any new sanctions. Even the United States did nothing more then extend the time limit for sanctions we already have. And of course, there are talks and meetings happening, which have been happening for years now. If it was such an apocalyptic issue, then why are we essentially doing the same thing over and over?

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And the fact that recently N.K. announced that it could consider boarding one of their ships as a declaration of war. What do you think they would make of Russia putting troops along their border?

Three years ago they said the same thing of economic sanctions:

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"If the U.S. keeps pestering us and increases pressure, we will regard it as a declaration of war

Yet here we are, three years later, with multiple sanctions from both Japan and the United States, and North Korea has not treated them as an act of war. If they say they're going to treat this and that as an act of war, and then refrain from treating our actions that way when we go ahead and sanction them anyway - then what cause do we have to think they'll carry through with similar threats?

Notably, right after NK's first nuclear tests, South Korea had this to say:

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In rare direct criticism of the communist regime from Seoul, South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun said the security threat cited by North Korea "either does not exist in reality, or is very exaggerated," according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.

Sloth wrote:

If it was such an apocalyptic issue, then why are we essentially doing the same thing over and over?

I never said it was. You're the one who put claims of hysteria and tin foil hat, end of days proclamations on me over a response that was never even made to you. You're the one who kept saying that nothing was going to come of these recent missile tests and threats of war, and that anyone honestly worried about it were raving hysterics, and then went on to say that it's the U.N.'s job so even if something were going to happen we couldn't do anything about it, so it's pointless to worry. And then you acted confused and cried foul when we felt we were being told to just ignore the situation.

If you've repeatedly used "imminent attack", so have I also repeatedly used "concern" in my own posts, to which you have also kept replying. So we're both fuck ups. Fantastic.

Let me just repeat the overall message I meant to imply with this thread: North Korea has recently been developing and testing their own WMD capability, which as it now stands according to recent reports reaches over 80% of the distance between themselves and Hawaii. They have essentially declared war on the U.S. in advance over a minor transgression, and threatened to bomb Hawaii. Countries that have in the past appeared unconcerned regarding North Korea's posturing and empty threats are beginning to show some signs of uneasiness. I think this is a worrisome and important topic of discussion and far more interesting than Perez Hiltion's latest bitch fit.

Is that more acceptable?

Ummm....My fear of N. Korea = My fear of squirrels.

N. Korea postures like whoa, but the thing is, they're broke and starving. I seriously doubt they can actually go to war. China, S. Korea, or Japan will stomp that shit before it gets started. Nobody is their friend anymore, not even China.

...Americans don't actually have to get involved everything. Other areas of the world are capable of solving problems.

The thing is, I'm not actually afraid that they'd win a war or significantly damage us. I'm not seriously taking them up on this "wipe the U.S. off of the face of the planet" nonsense.

Rather that if they did decide to go to war, there'd be casualties before we could retaliate. They might strike Hawaii as the closest target and only kill a few thousand people, or they might take out their aggression on their neighbors and do slightly more damage. And then we'd kill them dead. But before that, other people would die, and that bothers me.

Also, I can't remember who it was in chatbox, but we were discussing how if nukes came into play these days, it had the potential to be a giant, destructive clusterfuck.

Lady Anne wrote:

Bamshalam wrote:

the history of war tells us that a slightly smaller force which is highly trained and technologically advanced will run right over a large untrained rabble.

Are you sure about that? Because it sure seems like the colonies' rabble kicked the butts of the well-trained British during the American Revolution.

British Strategy: Stand in the middle of an open field wearing bright red.

Colonist's Strategy: Hide in the woods and shoot the traffic cones.

We had the home field advantage in that one. Which helps in the sense we know how to get the most out of the land and terrain features and such. It also means we didn't have to ship troops and supplies across the Atlantic to reinforce. And, more or less, we had the civilians on our side, so getting food and weapons of our own wasn't a TREMENDOUS chore in most cases.

And as I mentioned, the British were retarded.

Similar things happened with a Mujahideen and the North Vietnamese. Guerrilla warfare offset their numbers disadvantage, which was helped by Russian incompetence and American unwillingness.

Bammy wrote:

Dude, no. Back at the beginning of the war, before Hitler went crazy,
Germany was kicking ass all over the place. Hitler himself may
have been a shitty tactician, but the people he put in charge of making
those decisions were, again, No Joke.

They kicked the asses of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France. They MASSIVELY outgunned the first three, who were totally unprepared for the blitzkrieg. And even then, some of the Polish forces had marginal success against the blitz by attacking the German supply lines which were left unguarded during the hasty advance.

As for France, beating France in armed combat is like beating Mike Tyson in a spelling bee. Those retards tried to hide behind the Maginot Line, then pretty much gave up after the Germans went around it.

When they turned to Britain, who by then had gotten the message that they needed to be ready to fight hard, they got shot up all over the place in the Battle of Britain by a smaller British Air Force. It was fought to a stalemate, but the Germans suffered much more casualties in the air.

Then Furhur McNumbnutz took half of his army to attack the Russians. Then he drove his best General, Rommel, to suicide, then he started micromanaging everything, then he got three different feet planted up his ass.