Dozens queue up to sympathise with sex offender

InkWeaver wrote:

TheHedonist wrote:

tl;dr Men trivialize rape because in some parts of the world if a woman even suggests that it might've sort've happened kind of while they were both drunk, the man's life is immediately ruined and his side of the story is irrelevant.

That's not why men trivialize rape.

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Women trivialize rape when falsely accuse men, making men ambivalent.

That's not why rape is trivialized.

Okay then Inky, why is it trivialised? Offer up a different explanation, don't just state something is wrong and leave it at that, it's a good way to leave people confused.

I think rape is trivialized (and yeah, I did have to really ponder it for a while) because of the overtones of sexism that still exist today.

Rape is trivialized because it's seen as having to be the woman's fault - and it is a fact that most rapes are perpetrated by men against women. No one wants to have to blame a man for the rape, so the next best alternative is that the woman should not have drunk that much, should not have walked that way home, should have said yes to her husband, should not have mouthed off to her boyfriend, should not have worn those clothes, or that she "deserved" it in any way.

I think victim-blaming happens because men don't want to blame other men and many woman don't want to blame men simply because while treatment of men and woman as equals may be going on, the messages we receive in the media and in our daily lives are still that women are sex objects or homemakers subservient to men. You can see this simply in the sheer amount of people whose knee-jerk reaction to the statement, "This woman has a job and is successful but never wants to have children and doesn't want a husband" is "What's wrong with her?" (We did this in one of my classes, and it was kind of shocking some of the responses.)





Satisfactory?

InkWeaver wrote:

I think rape is trivialized (and yeah, I did have to really ponder it for a while) because of the overtones of sexism that still exist today.

Rape is trivialized because it's seen as having to be the woman's fault - and it is a fact that most rapes are perpetrated by men against women. No one wants to have to blame a man for the rape, so the next best alternative is that the woman should not have drunk that much, should not have walked that way home, should have said yes to her husband, should not have mouthed off to her boyfriend, should not have worn those clothes, or that she "deserved" it in any way.

I think victim-blaming happens because men don't want to blame other men and many woman don't want to blame men simply because while treatment of men and woman as equals may be going on, the messages we receive in the media and in our daily lives are still that women are sex objects or homemakers subservient to men. You can see this simply in the sheer amount of people whose knee-jerk reaction to the statement, "This woman has a job and is successful but never wants to have children and doesn't want a husband" is "What's wrong with her?" (We did this in one of my classes, and it was kind of shocking some of the responses.)

Satisfactory?

Much better, if we keep this up and this might turn from pointless bawing to an actual discussion.

Psy-4 wrote:

Do we demand war for little to no reason? No. No, we don't.

Dear Psy-4,

Congratulations!

You have won an all-expenses paid trip to Iraq, effective immediately.

Have a nice trip. See you next fall (if you're lucky).

Somath Cegem wrote:

InkWeaver wrote:

I think rape is trivialized (and yeah, I did have to really ponder it for a while) because of the overtones of sexism that still exist today.

Rape is trivialized because it's seen as having to be the woman's fault - and it is a fact that most rapes are perpetrated by men against women. No one wants to have to blame a man for the rape, so the next best alternative is that the woman should not have drunk that much, should not have walked that way home, should have said yes to her husband, should not have mouthed off to her boyfriend, should not have worn those clothes, or that she "deserved" it in any way.

I think victim-blaming happens because men don't want to blame other men and many woman don't want to blame men simply because while treatment of men and woman as equals may be going on, the messages we receive in the media and in our daily lives are still that women are sex objects or homemakers subservient to men. You can see this simply in the sheer amount of people whose knee-jerk reaction to the statement, "This woman has a job and is successful but never wants to have children and doesn't want a husband" is "What's wrong with her?" (We did this in one of my classes, and it was kind of shocking some of the responses.)

Satisfactory?

Much better, if we keep this up and this might turn from pointless bawing to an actual discussion.

Agreed.

InkWeaver I'm sorry if I made blanket statements. It's just something I've seen happen more than once, and it is ugly. For the record I agree with everything you said in that post.

^ It's cool. I only waited to address it because I knew I disagreed but didn't know how to state my reasoning.

InkWeaver wrote:

I think rape is trivialized (and yeah, I did have to really ponder it for a while) because of the overtones of sexism that still exist today.

So, why do people trivialize the ongoing prison rape epidemic, and treat it as some kind of righteous, justified punishment? The victims there are largely men.

TheHedonist wrote:

What I am saying is that it does happen, and it's a man's worst nightmare, and if that doesn't explain the battle-of-the-sexes ambivalence most men feel on the topic, I don't know what does.

So because there's a miniscule chance that a man might be falsely accused of rape, AND found guilty in a court of law based SOLELY on the victim's word and not due to any other factor, most men don't want to do anything to change the status quo and actually stop THOUSANDS of women (and men, and children) from being raped every year.

Pathetic. And grossly unfair to men.

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Speaking of them both being drunk, I can think of at least two college students I know of that were accused of rape when both parties were drunk out of their minds. Who does the fault fall on here? If the woman's upset, the man.

Tell me something. Which gender is constantly lectured not to drink, lest Bad Things (like Rape) Happen to them? Are men constantly urged to restrict their behaviour, lest they be Falsely Accused and have their lives ruined?

Why do you think that is?

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No man would ever even be taken seriously if he reported a woman getting him drunk and having her way with him. There's a double-standard here and if you try to deny it, you're frankly wrong.

Where does this double standard come from? Let's think.

Does it come from the notion that men are up for sex wherever, whenever, and with whoever happens to be available? Could that notion in turn be tied into the [edit]idea that men just can't control themselves in the presence of a desirable female? Could that concept possibly be used to excuse sexual behaviour that's, at the very least, questionable? Would that excuse be propagated by...men?

Patriarchy doesn't just hurt women.

Lysander wrote:

InkWeaver wrote:

I think rape is trivialized (and yeah, I did have to really ponder it for a while) because of the overtones of sexism that still exist today.

So, why do people trivialize the ongoing prison rape epidemic, and treat it as some kind of righteous, justified punishment? The victims there are largely men.

I would think ("would think" meaning I don't have much knowledge on the subject, so bear with me) it's because a large portion of the general public view prisoners as less-than-human, and cover it all with a blanket statement like, "Oh, well, if he hadn't committed [x crime] he wouldn't be getting raped in prison, so it's his own fault." This isn't an issue of sexism so much as an issue of, once again, viewing one group of people as "less" than another. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people talk about how criminals "deserved" to get the shit beaten out of them or "deserved" to be raped in prison, simply because they were in prison.

Cyberwulf wrote:

TheHedonist wrote:

What I am saying is that it does happen, and it's a man's worst nightmare, and if that doesn't explain the battle-of-the-sexes ambivalence most men feel on the topic, I don't know what does.

So because there's a miniscule chance that a man might be falsely accused of rape, AND found guilty in a court of law based SOLELY on the victim's word and not due to any other factor, most men don't want to do anything to change the status quo and actually stop THOUSANDS of women (and men, and children) from being raped every year.

It's hardly miniscule, I've seen at least three cases of this happening in my lifetime. And I'm young yet.

Edit: Two cases, one of them didn't take it to court.

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Speaking of them both being drunk, I can think of at least two college students I know of that were accused of rape when both parties were drunk out of their minds. Who does the fault fall on here? If the woman's upset, the man.

Tell me something. Which gender is constantly lectured not to drink, lest Bad Things (like Rape) Happen to them? Are men constantly urged to restrict their behaviour, lest they be Falsely Accused and have their lives ruined?

Why do you think that is?

I don't know if these were meant to be rhetorical, but I've heard both given as advice.

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No man would ever even be taken seriously if he reported a woman getting him drunk and having her way with him. There's a double-standard here and if you try to deny it, you're frankly wrong.

Where does this double standard come from? Let's think.

Does it come from the notion that men are up for sex wherever, whenever, and with whoever happens to be available? Could that notion in turn be tied into the [edit]idea that men just can't control themselves in the presence of a desirable female? Could that concept possibly be used to excuse sexual behaviour that's, at the very least, questionable? Would that excuse be propagated by...men?

Patriarchy doesn't just hurt women.

I'm torn here. You're really, really fucking condescending but you make some good points I agree with.

InkWeaver wrote:

This isn't an issue of sexism so much as an issue of, once again, viewing one group of people as "less" than another.

That's still not the core of the issue. The prejudice used to dismiss women and the prejudice used to dismiss convicts both stem from the same place.

The reason why people justify all manner crimes is that it's easier than admitting that a crime was committed, and then dealing with the consequences. The people in the OP will grasp whatever they can to ignore the fact that they are friends to a rapist. Prejudices, excuses, self-serving bullshit about how "the ends justify the means" . . . it's all meaningless. The only reason sexism is on display here is because these people want this whole situation to magically go away so that things can go back to the way they were.

We don't live in a rape culture, I think, but we may well live in a cowardly one.

Lysander wrote:

InkWeaver wrote:

This isn't an issue of sexism so much as an issue of, once again, viewing one group of people as "less" than another.

That's still not the core of the issue. The prejudice used to dismiss women and the prejudice used to dismiss convicts both stem from the same place.

The reason why people justify all manner crimes is that it's easier than admitting that a crime was committed, and then dealing with the consequences. The people in the OP will grasp whatever they can to ignore the fact that they are friends to a rapist. Prejudices, excuses, self-serving bullshit about how "the ends justify the means" . . . it's all meaningless. The only reason sexism is on display here is because these people want this whole situation to magically go away so that things can go back to the way they were.

We don't live in a rape culture, I think, but we may well live in a cowardly one.

Forgive me for being confused, but who are the "these people" in this statement? I think once I understand that, I'll be able to fully grasp your post.

The dozens lining up to sympathize with the sex offender.

Ah, okay, so what you're saying is, the only reason everyone's flailing about sexism is because that's the key to preventing everyone from pretending that this whole case never happened and that it wasn't his fault?

I'm just trying to get the hang of it here.

From what you say, though, I think you may be on to something, but I maintain my points as being valid ones. (I worked hard on those dammit.)

TheHedonist wrote:

tl;dr Men trivialize rape because in some parts of the world if a woman even suggests that it might've sort've happened kind of while they were both drunk, the man's life is immediately ruined and his side of the story is irrelevant. Women trivialize rape when falsely accuse men, making men ambivalent. I AM NOT SAYING ALL WOMEN OR EVEN MOST WOMEN DO THIS BEFORE YOU TRY TO CASTRATE ME FOR SAYING THIS, YES YOU ARE JUST THAT PREDICTABLE. What I am saying is that it does happen and it scares the living daylights out of men, and causes them to take the whole issue less seriously.

Fuckit, I wasn't going to say anything but this...just pisses me off.

Here, something which happens predominantly to women, and which is a problem, and yes, which is trivialised in too many cases suddenly becomes all about the poor ickle hard-done-to men. Bzzzzt! Wrong! Not so! Most of the time, it's men who rape, and women who are raped, and most of the time, women are raped by men they know in situations where they were entitled to feel safe.

If anything, if the situation which TheHedonist outlines were true, men should take the issue of rape more seriously than they do now. And that simply isn't the case.

InkWeaver wrote:

Ah, okay, so what you're saying is, the only reason everyone's flailing about sexism is because that's the key to preventing everyone from pretending that this whole case never happened and that it wasn't his fault?

Yeah, basically. Don't get me wrong; they are still sexists, by any meaningful definition of the word.

Their sexism doesn't come from society or the old days or anything, though. They just think that "maybe this would all go away if that woman would shut up about being raped."

Lexin wrote:

TheHedonist wrote:

tl;dr Men trivialize rape because in some parts of the world if a woman even suggests that it might've sort've happened kind of while they were both drunk, the man's life is immediately ruined and his side of the story is irrelevant. Women trivialize rape when falsely accuse men, making men ambivalent. I AM NOT SAYING ALL WOMEN OR EVEN MOST WOMEN DO THIS BEFORE YOU TRY TO CASTRATE ME FOR SAYING THIS, YES YOU ARE JUST THAT PREDICTABLE. What I am saying is that it does happen and it scares the living daylights out of men, and causes them to take the whole issue less seriously.

Here, something which happens predominantly to women, and which is a problem, and yes, which is trivialised in too many cases suddenly becomes all about the poor ickle hard-done-to men. Bzzzzt! Wrong! Not so! Most of the time, it's men who rape, and women who are raped, and most of the time, women are raped by men they know in situations where they were entitled to feel safe.

If anything, if the situation which TheHedonist outlines were true, men should take the issue of rape more seriously than they do now. And that simply isn't the case.

Um.

I never said men on the whole were hard-done-to in the situation. I did say that this was a possible reason for them to take rape less seriously. Because it is a scary thing and it does happen, and it is unfair to men. Even Cyberwulf agreed to that.

The point of the my post wasn't that men are worse off, clearly rape is generally something that happens to women and is on the whole more damaging to women. The point was that the prevalence of rape in a society hurts men, too.

The amount of false rape accusations is ridiculously miniscule compared to the amount of true accusations. That doesn't even include all the cases of rape that don't even get reported. It really upsets me that people are focusing on the fate of men who are falsely accused, rather than the vast amounts of women who have their lives ruined when they are raped. It's just appalling.

You know how men say that a woman claimed rape to ruin his life forever? In almost every case, that just doesn't happen! Most women are afraid to accuse men of rape in cases just like the one that Cyberwulf posted, because they know that people will hate them and say that they are lying.

Mary Sue wrote:

The amount of false rape accusations is ridiculously miniscule compared to the amount of true accusations. That doesn't even include all the cases of rape that don't even get reported. It really upsets me that people are focusing on the fate of men who are falsely accused, rather than the vast amounts of women who have their lives ruined when they are raped. It's just appalling.

You know how men say that a woman claimed rape to ruin his life forever? In almost every case, that just doesn't happen! Most women are afraid to accuse men of rape in cases just like the one that Cyberwulf posted, because they know that people will hate them and say that they are lying.

Meet

Cyberwulf wrote:

Where does this double standard come from? Let's think.

Does it come from the notion that men are up for sex wherever, whenever, and with whoever happens to be available? Could that notion in turn be tied into the [edit]idea that men just can't control themselves in the presence of a desirable female? Could that concept possibly be used to excuse sexual behaviour that's, at the very least, questionable? Would that excuse be propagated by...men?

Patriarchy doesn't just hurt women.

This. Cyberwulf said what I was trying to say, but couldn't find my own point. I have conceded every point you just called me appalling for not making.

Psy-4 wrote:

Yet we don't live in Murder Culture, like we should.

Pope John Paul II frequently spoke about Western society, America in particular, living in a "culture of death," which encompassed our glorification of violence, violent crime, the death penalty, and legalized abortion.

TheHedonist wrote:

Mary Sue wrote:

The amount of false rape accusations is ridiculously miniscule compared to the amount of true accusations. That doesn't even include all the cases of rape that don't even get reported. It really upsets me that people are focusing on the fate of men who are falsely accused, rather than the vast amounts of women who have their lives ruined when they are raped. It's just appalling.

You know how men say that a woman claimed rape to ruin his life forever? In almost every case, that just doesn't happen! Most women are afraid to accuse men of rape in cases just like the one that Cyberwulf posted, because they know that people will hate them and say that they are lying.

Meet

Cyberwulf wrote:

Where does this double standard come from? Let's think.

Does it come from the notion that men are up for sex wherever, whenever, and with whoever happens to be available? Could that notion in turn be tied into the [edit]idea that men just can't control themselves in the presence of a desirable female? Could that concept possibly be used to excuse sexual behaviour that's, at the very least, questionable? Would that excuse be propagated by...men?

Patriarchy doesn't just hurt women.

This. Cyberwulf said what I was trying to say, but couldn't find my own point. I have conceded every point you just called me appalling for not making.

I wasn't calling you appalling specifically. It's just that the argument of "but there are false accusations of rape" seems to come up a lot in debates like this. And I don't mean just here. It really says something about society that we ignore the real victims to focus on those who are generally perpetrators of the crime.

TheHedonist wrote:

Because it is a scary thing and it does happen, and it is unfair to men. Even Cyberwulf agreed to that.

No, I said that your generalisation/explanation for "men" not taking rape seriously was pathetic, and was unfair to men, since it casts them as so paranoid about being falsely accused (or maybe accused with good reason) that they refuse to tackle the prevalance and acceptance of rape.

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Cyber, while rape is an atrocity and terrible, a friend of my sister's from high school got accused of being a rapist after her parents found out they had sex and weren't happy. So she cries to Mommy and Daddy, and suddenly the guy's going to jail. She was perfectly fine beforehand, but as soon as her parents find out it was rape.

This poisonous little bitch my brother dated for a while planned to do this to him. Why? Because she was 'bored'. Oh, that poor girl, my sweet little brother who treated her liked a queen bored her! He clearly deserves to have his life ruined for it!!!

Cyberwulf wrote:

TheHedonist wrote:

Because it is a scary thing and it does happen, and it is unfair to men. Even Cyberwulf agreed to that.

No, I said that your generalisation/explanation for "men" not taking rape seriously was pathetic, and was unfair to men, since it casts them as so paranoid about being falsely accused (or maybe accused with good reason) that they refuse to tackle the prevalance and acceptance of rape.

That can happen when the subject is approached clumsily. Take the SARC briefings we get, for example. If you tell a man that he's been sexually assaulting his wife by kissing her hello and goodbye without first getting explicit, verbal consent every day for the past 12 years, he's probably going to get defensive. I think those briefings miss the point. It's important to be positive that you have consent, but if people walk out feeling like they need to have their spouses or partners sign a legal document of consent before they even touch each other, they are overwhelmed, and the message has been lost.

Penguin wrote:

Psy-4 wrote:

Yet we don't live in Murder Culture, like we should.

Pope John Paul II frequently spoke about Western society, America in particular, living in a "culture of death," which encompassed our glorification of violence, violent crime, the death penalty, and legalized abortion.

And now he's dead. He contributed to the very same "death culture" he spoke out against. Can we really trust a hypocrite like that?

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to slaying millions in Call of Duty.