Dozens queue up to sympathise with sex offender

Spotts1701 wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

There's way too much of this shit floating around for it all to be "aberrations".

But even if you get rid of all of that, you are still going to not going to get where you want to be because you cannot eliminate (no matter how hard you try) the personal biases and baggage that jurors bring into a case.

And I'm not talking about accusations. I'm talking about cases that actually go to trial (remember, 98% of all criminal cases in the United States are plea-bargained or dismissed before trial).

Take the Marsalis case in Philadelphia: 10 women, all of them willing to testify in court that Marsalis drugged and raped them. Expert testimony that he was a "sexually violent predator". A history of Marsalis posing as everything from a doctor to a CIA agent to commit his crimes. Physical evidence, including documents on his computer laying out his crimes.

No convictions.

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

that casts rape as entirely a women's issue even though the vast majority of rapists are men? .

To be fair, it doesn't matter how many times you tell men not to be rapists,

Stop.

How many men think that a rapist is a stranger who jumps out from behind a bush or breaks into a woman's home?

How many of them think that it's acceptable to have sex with a drunk woman, even though she may have absolutely no idea what's going on?

How many of them feel it's acceptable to nag, moan, blackmail, threaten, coerce or use non-physical force to get sex?

How many of them think it's okay to put their penises inside a sleeping or unconscious woman?

How many of them think "no" means she's playing hard to get?

How many of them bother to actually ask a woman if she wants sex, rather than assuming that if there's no "no", they're good to go?

How many of them think it's okay to deliberately get a woman drunk so that she'll be more open to having sex with them?

And how many of them tolerate or even approve of this behaviour when their buddies do it?

And how many of them do you think will actually listen to you and just go "Oh well that can't mean me..". Face it, lecture all you want a twat will still act like a twat.

So this is both of you throwing up your hands and saying "we can't do anything about it, we'll just let this continue".

Cyberwulf wrote:

Spotts1701 wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

There's way too much of this shit floating around for it all to be "aberrations".

But even if you get rid of all of that, you are still going to not going to get where you want to be because you cannot eliminate (no matter how hard you try) the personal biases and baggage that jurors bring into a case.

And I'm not talking about accusations. I'm talking about cases that actually go to trial (remember, 98% of all criminal cases in the United States are plea-bargained or dismissed before trial).

Take the Marsalis case in Philadelphia: 10 women, all of them willing to testify in court that Marsalis drugged and raped them. Expert testimony that he was a "sexually violent predator". A history of Marsalis posing as everything from a doctor to a CIA agent to commit his crimes. Physical evidence, including documents on his computer laying out his crimes.

No convictions.

So this is both of you throwing up your hands and saying "we can't do anything about it, we'll just let this continue".

Oh for cryin' out loud Wulf...not everyone who is arguing against you is telling you you're wrong.

I'm telling you that even doing everything you want to do is not going to give you the result you want. You can tell jurors to remove all the prejudices they have until you're blue in the face. You can tie the defense attorney's hands until they scream violations of the Fifth Amendment, you can rewrite the rape-shield laws until they're as airtight as a submarine.

You still won't get better than an 80% conviction rate. 1 out of every 5 trials (and again, trials only happen when the prosecution believes that they'll win a conviction) will still end in acquittal even under the best of circumstances.

Cyberwulf wrote:

So this is both of you throwing up your hands and saying "we can't do anything about it, we'll just let this continue".

No I'm just saying that going "Rape is bad, Don't Rape!" at men will have little to no effect. Making it so that people can crush some fuckers whos trying rape them nuts without any repercussions would be much more effect driving that home. Unfortunatly innocent until proven guilty has been misconstrued that the victim is seen as wrong until proven right and that needs gone.
There are tons of things that need doing, I'm just saying yelling at men that rape is bad won't do much cause guess what, most of us know that already.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Oh for cryin' out loud Wulf...not everyone who is arguing against you is telling you you're wrong.

I'm telling you that even doing everything you want to do is not going to give you the result you want. You can tell jurors to remove all the prejudices they have until you're blue in the face. You can tie the defense attorney's hands until they scream violations of the Fifth Amendment, you can rewrite the rape-shield laws until they're as airtight as a submarine.

You still won't get better than an 80% conviction rate. 1 out of every 5 trials (and again, trials only happen when the prosecution believes that they'll win a conviction) will still end in acquittal even under the best of circumstances.

Did it occur to you that maybe educating the young boys who will one day be men about rape and trying to eliminate the toxic attitudes to women so pervasive in society might lead to a decrease in this kind of behaviour? Or maybe encourage more rape victims to come forward because they know they'll actually be believed?

If you're not throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done, then stop sounding like you're throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done.

Somath Cegem wrote:

I'm just saying that going "Rape is bad, Don't Rape!" at men will have little to no effect.

CAN YOU EVEN FUCKING READ

DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT I FUCKING POSTED EARLIER

OR ARE YOU JUST A MORON

Cyberwulf wrote:

CAN YOU EVEN FUCKING READ

DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT I FUCKING POSTED EARLIER

OR ARE YOU JUST A MORON

You know the middle one, yeah didn't do that. I can only take so much femrage before not giving a shit anymore after my mates 20th.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Spotts1701 wrote:

Oh for cryin' out loud Wulf...not everyone who is arguing against you is telling you you're wrong.

I'm telling you that even doing everything you want to do is not going to give you the result you want. You can tell jurors to remove all the prejudices they have until you're blue in the face. You can tie the defense attorney's hands until they scream violations of the Fifth Amendment, you can rewrite the rape-shield laws until they're as airtight as a submarine.

You still won't get better than an 80% conviction rate. 1 out of every 5 trials (and again, trials only happen when the prosecution believes that they'll win a conviction) will still end in acquittal even under the best of circumstances.

Did it occur to you that maybe educating the young boys who will one day be men about rape and trying to eliminate the toxic attitudes to women so pervasive in society might lead to a decrease in this kind of behaviour? Or maybe encourage more rape victims to come forward because they know they'll actually be believed?

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Thank you for treating me like a fucking moron. I always love being treated that way.

YES IT DID OCCUR TO ME.

What part of "doing everything you want to do" wasn't clear?

Until you eliminate the human element from police and law, you won't get perfection. You won't get close. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Until you eliminate the human element from police and law, you won't get perfection. You won't get close. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Who said anything about perfection? We can at least get better. Since there are parts of the world with worse attitudes about rape than the West, it stands to reason that there's the possibility of better attitudes than we have now.

"Never look at women, boys. Unless she wants you to, you're raping her. And even then she must specifically state as much, in words, then write it down and get it notarized and hand it you, in a sealed tamper-resistant envelope."


As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right? And appease the woverns or whatever they're calling themselves now?

saeku wrote:

Who said anything about perfection? We can at least get better. Since there are parts of the world with worse attitudes about rape than the West, it stands to reason that there's the possibility of better attitudes than we have now.

Look, I'll concede the point we can get better. I think what I was trying to say got muddied up a little.

Right now the conviction rate for rape in the U.S. is hovering at around 50-55%, depending on what region of the country you are looking at. Stranger rape remains the most likely crime to end in conviction (about 2 out of 3), while "friend rape" or "spousal rape" (for lack of better terms) is running at the lowest (1 out of 4). Rape reports still are in the 20% range

So let's say we can get the overall conviction rate up to 70% and the report rate up by 100% (again, assuming everything you want done is done and assuming the standard legal anomalies that happen such as jury nullification and police incompetence). That still leaves 30% of all rape cases that go to trial ending in acquittal, and about 2/3 of all rapes unreported in the first place.

Sheba wrote:

"Never look at women, boys. Unless she wants you to, you're raping her. And even then she must specifically state as much, in words, then write it down and get it notarized and hand it you, in a sealed tamper-resistant envelope."

As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right? And appease the woverns or whatever they're calling themselves now?

No one said anything about that, even crazy old Cyberwulf, but thanks for the strawman.

saeku wrote:

Who said anything about perfection? We can at least get better. Since there are parts of the world with worse attitudes about rape than the West, it stands to reason that there's the possibility of better attitudes than we have now.

Word, absolutely. I don't think we're talking about 'doing nothing until we can have perfection', but an improvement over what we have now would be, well, an improvement.

Mae Bedlam wrote:

Sheba wrote:

"Never look at women, boys. Unless she wants you to, you're raping her. And even then she must specifically state as much, in words, then write it down and get it notarized and hand it you, in a sealed tamper-resistant envelope."

As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right? And appease the woverns or whatever they're calling themselves now?

No one said anything about that, even crazy old Cyberwulf, but thanks for the strawman.

It would, though. If they're not physically capable of rape it would cut down on it a lot.

Cyberwulf: is there anything anyone can say in this thread that won't piss you off?

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

So this is both of you throwing up your hands and saying "we can't do anything about it, we'll just let this continue".

No I'm just saying that going "Rape is bad, Don't Rape!" at men will have little to no effect. Making it so that people can crush some fuckers whos trying rape them nuts without any repercussions would be much more effect driving that home. Unfortunatly innocent until proven guilty has been misconstrued that the victim is seen as wrong until proven right and that needs gone.
There are tons of things that need doing, I'm just saying yelling at men that rape is bad won't do much cause guess what, most of us know that already.

Somath, why even pretend to have a discussion if you're not going to read the responses? That's not what she's been saying this entire thread. You're taking what she's saying, and approximating it with something different so that you can say you don't have the power to improve anything, ever.

And sadly, I don't think you're trollan.

Cyberwulf wrote:

I'm glad you finally agree.

lol no

Sheba wrote:

Mae Bedlam wrote:

Sheba wrote:

"Never look at women, boys. Unless she wants you to, you're raping her. And even then she must specifically state as much, in words, then write it down and get it notarized and hand it you, in a sealed tamper-resistant envelope."

As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right? And appease the woverns or whatever they're calling themselves now?

No one said anything about that, even crazy old Cyberwulf, but thanks for the strawman.

It would, though. If they're not physically capable of rape it would cut down on it a lot.

Ummm, objects? Rape is not confined to just a penis going in an orifice.

Also, thanks for bringing genital mutilation of defenseless children into this discussion.

Everyone is wrong.

No one is right.

Sheba wrote:

As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right?

No.
And if a couple wants to have kids or consensual sex, they're fucked.

Your strawman makes decent guys cross their legs in pain.

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

CAN YOU EVEN FUCKING READ

DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT I FUCKING POSTED EARLIER

OR ARE YOU JUST A MORON

You know the middle one, yeah didn't do that. I can only take so much femrage before not giving a shit anymore after my mates 20th.

Then shut your fucking mouth. And stop pretending you even give a rat's ass about this topic.

Sheba wrote:

As much as I hate to agree with that crazy Allecto, sometimes it seems like it WOULD be better if baby boys were just neutered and depenised at birth. That should prevent all the raping, right? And appease the woverns or whatever they're calling themselves now?

Oh fuck off.

Lysander wrote:

Cyberwulf: is there anything anyone can say in this thread that won't piss you off?

Gee, I don't know! Perhaps if you read the thread there might be a clue.

Psy-4 wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

I'm glad you finally agree.

lol no

See, Psy, when you sarcastically respond in the manner in which you did, you're supposed to make one of your words a link to an alternate explanation. But thanks for playing.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Look, I'll concede the point we can get better. I think what I was trying to say got muddied up a little.

Right now the conviction rate for rape in the U.S. is hovering at around 50-55%, depending on what region of the country you are looking at. Stranger rape remains the most likely crime to end in conviction (about 2 out of 3), while "friend rape" or "spousal rape" (for lack of better terms) is running at the lowest (1 out of 4). Rape reports still are in the 20% range

So let's say we can get the overall conviction rate up to 70% and the report rate up by 100% (again, assuming everything you want done is done and assuming the standard legal anomalies that happen such as jury nullification and police incompetence). That still leaves 30% of all rape cases that go to trial ending in acquittal, and about 2/3 of all rapes unreported in the first place.

That's still better than what we have now. Before it seemed like you were saying that there was no point in trying because there'll still be acquittals. I never proposed any kind of magic bullet to eliminate rape altogether.

By the way, Somath:

InkWeaver wrote:

You're taking what she's saying, and approximating it with something different so that you can say you don't have the power to improve anything, ever.

And sadly, I don't think you're trollan.

- this makes you part of the problem.

Cyberwulf wrote:

See, Psy, when you sarcastically respond in the manner in which you did, you're supposed to make one of your words a link to an alternate explanation. But thanks for playing.

Oh sorry. I thought you already considered Psychology 101. But since you're actually talking about 'rape culture' seriously, I guess I should have known better.

First up, the just-world phenomenon.

'I am a just person in a just world and everyone gets what the deserve and deserve what they get.' This is complete bullshit, but it's wide-spread and is directly responsible for victim blaming.

Then, the bystander effect.

'Something horrible is happening, but nobody does anything, so it must be okay.' Ironically, that's the thought that goes through everyone's heads and nothing gets done.

People were asking the woman(the victim in the OP) if she was sorry, because she ruined his life(he deserved it obviously); he's a criminal, and probably, a registered sex offender, now; when he gets out of jail, he will never hold a high-paying job etc. etc. The people care about him more than they care about her.

Gender doesn't even begin to enter the equation.

Rape culture doesn't exist. And the reason it doesn't exist is the same reason you think it does. Rape is normalized blah blah blah... But what about murder? Do we live in a murder culture? Do we cheer for violent killers? Do we demand war for little to no reason? No. No, we don't. How do I know that? Because Russia and U.S. are not at war and the numbers of violent murders occurring per year are a third, fifth or even tenth of what they are supposed to be, if murder was encouraged.

And I was subjected to instance of murder being excused, normalized at least a hundred times more than rape. I witnessed people being mowed down with machine guns like grass. I murdered, stolen, and caused billions upon billions of property damage. I dropped nukes on every continent. Only half the time I've been given a some semblance of a reason like 'They are bad.' 'Senseless' doesn't even begin to describe the other half. I am the history's greatest monster.

Do I encourage murder? Only in the most extreme of circumstances. Do I want a senseless war or senseless murder? No.

And how disappointed I was that this 'Male Privilege' was just a series of outdated and deteriorating social attitudes, biases and double standards. I hoped it was some sort of perk that I wasn't taking advantage of.

Also, pointing out the economic disadvantage that women face is useless, because it's conveniently forgotten that businesses would happily oppress men as well as women if given the chance to do so, and it has little to do with the fact that they are women and more with the fact that it's convenient.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

CAN YOU EVEN FUCKING READ

DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT I FUCKING POSTED EARLIER

OR ARE YOU JUST A MORON

You know the middle one, yeah didn't do that. I can only take so much femrage before not giving a shit anymore after my mates 20th.

Then shut your fucking mouth. And stop pretending you even give a rat's ass about this topic.

All you have to do now is start pushing me around a bar and gather your cronies round and we'll have ourselves a repeat performance, ta love.
Oh and I give plenty of a rats ass about any topic that skirts any bloody where near "It's entirely this groups fault", yes I skirt over your posts as a rule but can you blame me, 75% of it is generic rage and inventive swearing with an actual valid point in there so mangled that it barely shows through.
I'll admit on much closer inspection that I did outline what you wished was happen, using words you didn't but considering the only point I was trying to make was "This one thing your suggesting won't work, everything else should help, this won't" So if I did't comment on some parts of your posts IT'S CAUSE I FUCKING AGREED WITH THEM YOU SELF RIGHTEOUS MORON!!

InkWeaver wrote:

You're taking what she's saying, and approximating it with something different so that you can say you don't have the power to improve anything, ever.

And sadly, I don't think you're trollan.

Inky, I love you. But once again, pointing out focusing on male behaviour will have little to no effect =/= dismissing everything else she's said. Infact, hang on.

My first post in this thread wrote:

To be fair, it doesn't matter how many times you tell men not to be rapists, those that do rape prolly aren't gonna be deterred just by being told it's wrong.

Blah Blah Blah

Other than that, no arguments with your post wulf.

Yeah, I think a pot calling the kettle black comes to mind.

Cyberwulf wrote:

- this makes you part of the problem.

Oh I'm gonna love this one, how am I part of the problem? Because last time I checked, beyond not Raping people/keeping an eye on those around me/reporting anything along those lines to the right people, all of which I do btw, I don't have the power to do anything more.

(Sits patiently and waits for cyberwulf to read about 1 line in and then call me a Cuntnozzle)

Psy-4 wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

See, Psy, when you sarcastically respond in the manner in which you did, you're supposed to make one of your words a link to an alternate explanation. But thanks for playing.

*semi-coherent, irrelevant analogy about war*

Go lie down.

Somath, throwing up your hands makes you part of the problem. Saying you "can only take so much femrage before not giving a shit" trivialises the issue. Saying "oh well I don't commit rape, my work is done" misses the point.

Oh, but here's your real problem:

Quote :

Oh and I give plenty of a rats ass about any topic that skirts any bloody where near "It's entirely this groups fault"

Sorry, but the vast, VAST, majority of rapists ARE MEN. And I don't give a shit if that uncomfortable fact hurts your feelings. If that's why you can't be fucking bothered to read this thread before pontificating and wringing your hands, then ask yourself why you feel that way.

PS: I don't use that word.

Hot Cancer wrote:

Go lie down.

How is my analogy of murder to rape irrelevant?

Both are violent crimes. Murder more so.

But murder was excused and normalized up and down the block more than rape ever was.

Yet we don't live in Murder Culture, like we should.