Irish men have the right to choose, Irish women can suck it

Woman loses appeal over frozen embryos

This case has been going on for a while. Basically: A couple in Ireland underwent IVF treatment and made some embryos. Some were implanted, resulting in two dotey little children, the rest were frozen. Then the couple split up.

The woman wanted to have the remaining embryos implanted. The father said no way. The Supreme Court sided with him, saying that frozen embryos are not protected under article 40.3.3 of the Constitution.

Forget for a minute whether you're life or choice. As of this ruling, the situation here is as follows:

If a woman wants to use a frozen embryo to have a baby, and the man who fertilised it doesn't want to become a father, then his right to not become a parent, even a purely biological one, is sacrosanct, upheld by the highest court in the land. The embryo goes to the incinerator or is used for stem cell research.

If a woman wants to get that same embryo, at the same stage of development, out of her womb using a medical procedure, the Constitution says that BY GOD AND JESUS SHE HAS TO HAVE THAT BABY. If she doesn't want to be a parent, even a purely biological one:

1) she may hope the pregnancy turns lifethreatening
2) or pretend to be suicidal
3) or she'd better have the money to go abroad, because unless 1) or 2) are met BY THE VIRGIN MARY SHE'S NOT KILLING HER BABY OVER HERE.

And that's how fucking backward this country is when it comes to equality and reproductive rights. BUT THERE'S TOTALLY NO INSTITUTIONAL SEXISM OR PATRIARCHY AMIRITE

Cyberwulf wrote:

BUT THERE'S TOTALLY NO INSTITUTIONAL SEXISM OR PATRIARCHY AMIRITE

Well there certainly is in Ireland. But Ireland =/= the whole world.

Don't worry Cy, if the pro-lifers have their way they'll close this one off too and you won't be allowed dispose of frozen embryoes either and all will be equal again... [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


I presume therefore institutions will be required to keep them indefinitely. Even if the parents die and couldn't possibly want them.

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

BUT THERE'S TOTALLY NO INSTITUTIONAL SEXISM OR PATRIARCHY AMIRITE

Well there certainly is in Ireland. But Ireland =/= the whole world.

Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Britain is completely free of sexism?

Cyberwulf wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

BUT THERE'S TOTALLY NO INSTITUTIONAL SEXISM OR PATRIARCHY AMIRITE

Well there certainly is in Ireland. But Ireland =/= the whole world.

Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Britain is completely free of sexism?

Not on the concept of abortion as far as I can tell, since it was legalised it's been pretty much a non-issue.

There was a case in the UK that was similar. If I remember correctly the woman had some kind of cancer, I think ovarian, so they removed and fertilised some embryos with her husbands sperm so that she could still choose to have her own child in the future (since they had to remove her ovaries).

She and her husband split up, but when the time came when she decided she wanted a child, he refused to give his consent to use the fertilised embryos. The law found in his favour and now that woman will never be able to have her own child. Ever. Even putting aside the law and arguing about sexism for a second, what kind of a total selfish son of a bitch must that guy be?

I'll see if I can find a news link of some kind.
ETA: found it
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How does child support fit into this, out of curiosity?

I'm not really understanding, as Fitch said, what kind of asshat you'd have to be to do this unless he thought he had something to lose.

Mafiosa wrote:

How does child support fit into this, out of curiosity?

In Ireland, the whole area regarding IVF is unregulated. One of the judges noted this in his ruling and criticised the Government for letting it get into that state. But since they already have at least one child together, he must be paying some support.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

How does child support fit into this, out of curiosity?

In Ireland, the whole area regarding IVF is unregulated. One of the judges noted this in his ruling and criticised the Government for letting it get into that state. But since they already have at least one child together, he must be paying some support.

It can just go in the pile for the Justice ministry.

The underage sex law is being challenged again, you know. The one they brought in 3 years ago because the last one in unconstitutional.

Oh FFS, Ireland.

Honestly, if your policy is that an embryo in a woman's body is alive and must be turned into a baby, then it should logically follow that a frozen one has the same rights.

I'm with CW here; that's sexism right there.

Hot Cancer wrote:

The underage sex law is being challenged again, you know. The one they brought in 3 years ago because the last one in unconstitutional.

Oh yeah I saw that. Best quote from it is the bit about how boys face up to five years in prison if prosecuted under it while girls "only" have to fear the "threat of pregnancy". Yeah, better hope they can get the money to go to England if they get pregnant.

You know, for all the hand-wringing about how bad things were in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, the Supreme Court had some good judges like Cearbhall O Dalaigh who interpreted the Constitution with a view to fundamental rights: for example, the legalisation of birth control. Now the judges are pretty much at a level with the politicians in terms of integrity and competence.

Fucking hell.

That's it, pack your bags, I'll set up the guest bedroom for you. That's fucking ridiculous!

I could see some people doing this as they'd be scared of having to pay child support after the baby is born. But yeah, Ireland's fucked up and the UK guy was a asshole. Do you how fucking hard it is to adopt children in that country?

Not only in Ireland.
It's easier here to adopt from the Third world - or Russia if you'd rather adopt a Caucasian male - than to pry an Italian kid from an orphanage. By the time you're done with the paperwork you might as well hire him as an apprentice.

Out of curiosity, who manages the foster care/orphanages in Ireland? State or charities?

I'm trying to understand this in a way that makes it logical. And you know what, all I keep coming back to is an illogical screaming rant about hypocritical assholes with a double standard who need to be kicked in the ass so bad the archangel Gabriel ought to be the one doing it with her flaming sword.

Hold on, hold on, I'm sure I can come up with a cool-headed and sound argument.

Nope, just thinking of a lead pipe. Cool to the touch and the victim makes an interesting sound when you whack them in the thighs with it.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Hot Cancer wrote:

The underage sex law is being challenged again, you know. The one they brought in 3 years ago because the last one in unconstitutional.

Oh yeah I saw that. Best quote from it is the bit about how boys face up to five years in prison if prosecuted under it while girls "only" have to fear the "threat of pregnancy". Yeah, better hope they can get the money to go to England if they get pregnant.

They were unduly dismissive about it to say the least.

I don't think that a 15 year old should face 5 years in jail for having sex with a 14 year old, irrespective of gender, though.

The Unoriginal wrote:

Not only in Ireland.
It's easier here to adopt from the Third world - or Russia if you'd rather adopt a Caucasian male - than to pry an Italian kid from an orphanage. By the time you're done with the paperwork you might as well hire him as an apprentice.

I was talking about England, not Ireland since I don't know how adoption works there. My friend is looking into adopting a kid but unless you're the same ethnic mix and religion as the kid's parents, no matter how old the kid is, then you're shit out of luck.

Narwhal wrote:

Fucking hell.

That's it, pack your bags, I'll set up the guest bedroom for you. That's fucking ridiculous!

Just out of curiosity, were you replying to my post? It's just that I couldn't put it in context otherwise.

The Unoriginal wrote:

Out of curiosity, who manages the foster care/orphanages in Ireland? State or charities?

Mostly state, I think (no orphanages any more, only foster care). It's administered through the health boards, I think, and I believe it may be outsourced to some of the charities, or was in the past, I'm not sure which.

Glen wrote:

Just out of curiosity, were you replying to my post? It's just that I couldn't put it in context otherwise.

She was inviting Wulfie over, you dip.

God, when are they ever going to do something about the whole frozen-embryo thing? Has this ever been a good idea? It's like lighting the fuses on a half-dozen little lawsuit bombs at a time and sticking them in a freezer.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Irish women can suck it

Time to make weekend travel plans.

OH LOOK MORE SHITTY ABORTION NEWS FROM THE STATES

Quote :

A judge could determine Friday whether to allow an Oklahoma law to go forward that will post information online about women who get abortions in the state -- an act critics say would be harassment and an invasion of privacy.

Quote :

State Sen. Todd Lamb helped draft the abortion legislation and

Quote :

describes it as "a common sense measure with bipartisan support."

He says the left has tried to skew the law's intent through a campaign of misinformation.

"We're not trying to embarrass anybody, hurt anybody or make anybody's identities known. That's not the purpose of the legislation," the Republican lawmaker says.

"We want to collect hard data that can be a useful tool in helping prevent future unwanted pregnancies."

The law requires doctors to fill out a 10-page questionnaire for every abortion performed, including asking the woman about her age, marital status, race and years of education.

One section of the "Individual Abortion Form" says the woman must state her reason for seeking an abortion and answer this checklist. "Having a baby:
• Would dramatically change the life of the mother;
• Would interfere with the education of the mother;
• Would interfere with the job/employment/career of the mother."

Quote :

According to state estimates, the Oklahoma State Department of Health will spend roughly $250,000 a year to carry out the law.

Fucking Oklahoma.

Delcat wrote:

Glen wrote:

Just out of curiosity, were you replying to my post? It's just that I couldn't put it in context otherwise.

She was inviting Wulfie over, you dip.

Yeah, I should learn not to post at 2 a.m.

Uhm, filling out a form for data gathering purposes is one thing--normally, that information is kept secret. However, posting it online? WTF? What other purpose would that serve than harassment?

Quote :

One section of the "Individual Abortion Form" says the woman must state her reason for seeking an abortion and answer this checklist. "Having a baby:
• Would dramatically change the life of the mother;

When does having a baby not dramatically change the life of the mother?