Seriously, Doesn't the Texas State Senate Have Anything Better to Do?

Oh. Oh dear. I'm trying to wrap my head around how ignorant, close-minded, and full of self-righteousness a group would have to be to do this, but I can't quite do it.

They can't do this. State run schools fall under government banhammer. Just wait until enough Jewish, Muslim, pagan, atheist, and Christians with respect for other people's opinions get on this. This craziness shall be shot dead at dawn. It will not get a last cigarette.

It ain't happening in my state, I can tell you that.

I can see why my Texas-born-and-raised grandmother married a soldier she'd only known 4 days and ran off to Nevada with him. Nevada may be dysfunctional, but it ain't got nothing on Texas.

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

As someone said, if you want your child to get a religious education, take them to church or send them to a church-run school. If you're so terrified that learning about evolution is going to turn them into heathens, home school them; thereby ensuring that they'll never have to have their pure little minds sullied by anything you don't agree with.

And I'm fairly sure not everyone living in Texas is a white, right-wing conversative Christian. Doesn't forcing children raised in non-Christian religions (or with no religion at all) qualify as a form of discrimination? It would be like the UK deciding the only religion kids could be taught was Church of England.

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Mafiosa wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Which did not make them ultraconservative Christians.

Quite frankly, the founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. They had seen the misery that forced religion had caused in Europe.

Lady Anne wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Which did not make them ultraconservative Christians.

Quite frankly, the founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. They had seen the misery that forced religion had caused in Europe.

I think it was something like 28 of 49 founders were C of E, and a number of those were closer to deist ideals than rigid C of E. Definitely not the ultra-conservative paragons of perfect Protestant piety that modern conservatives like to trot out as proof of this being a solely Christian nation.

I'm crossing my fingers that California's demand for textbooks will balance out any curriculum demands Texas can make. Sure, the companies will want to cater to the biggest buyer, but maybe they'll be forced to edit the Texan committee's changes to keep Californians happy with materials.

(This is, of course, ignoring the fact that California won't be buying anything anytime soon. )

lemmingwriter wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Which did not make them ultraconservative Christians.

Quite frankly, the founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. They had seen the misery that forced religion had caused in Europe.

I think it was something like 28 of 49 founders were C of E, and a number of those were closer to deist ideals than rigid C of E. Definitely not the ultra-conservative paragons of perfect Protestant piety that modern conservatives like to trot out as proof of this being a solely Christian nation.

I'm crossing my fingers that California's demand for textbooks will balance out any curriculum demands Texas can make. Sure, the companies will want to cater to the biggest buyer, but maybe they'll be forced to edit the Texan committee's changes to keep Californians happy with materials.

(This is, of course, ignoring the fact that California won't be buying anything anytime soon. )

Yeah, while we're at it, what the hell is up with that? Of all the things he's done, Arnie rocking up and terminating books for no damn reason really gets my goat.

Fitchsticks wrote:

lemmingwriter wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Which did not make them ultraconservative Christians.

Quite frankly, the founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. They had seen the misery that forced religion had caused in Europe.

I think it was something like 28 of 49 founders were C of E, and a number of those were closer to deist ideals than rigid C of E. Definitely not the ultra-conservative paragons of perfect Protestant piety that modern conservatives like to trot out as proof of this being a solely Christian nation.

I'm crossing my fingers that California's demand for textbooks will balance out any curriculum demands Texas can make. Sure, the companies will want to cater to the biggest buyer, but maybe they'll be forced to edit the Texan committee's changes to keep Californians happy with materials.

(This is, of course, ignoring the fact that California won't be buying anything anytime soon. )

Yeah, while we're at it, what the hell is up with that? Of all the things he's done, Arnie rocking up and terminating books for no damn reason really gets my goat.

My district just bought English textbooks. We had to dip into various funds to pay for them. The textbook companies were so desperate for any business at all that they gave us lots of freebies and cut the prices on what they did charge for.

Meanwhile, many districts have laid off lots of people, increased class sizes, made do with old textbooks (not that most of them have changed fundamentally anyway--Algebra is Algebra, no matter when the book was published, and the English textbooks contain much of the same material as I studied in high school in the 90's and my parents studied in high school in the 60's, especially the pre-20th century classics).

I don't see much of anything good happening to the schools in California until the fucking politicians quit fighting and do something useful. So far, school employees are not getting IOUs. Knock on wood that we won't.

Quote :

Quote :

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several
of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know
for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the
separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

True. Deism is the believe that God started the universe, wandered off to buy milk and never came back. In real world terms, that's practically atheism with the numbers filed off. Not only is the USA not a Christian nation (and said so in the Treaty of Tripoli), the founders were barely Christian by modern terms.

It's not even secret knowledge: my English American lit textbook pointed out all of those things in the first 25 pages or so.

Lady Anne wrote:

Fitchsticks wrote:

lemmingwriter wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Am I wrong in seeming to remember that several of the founding fathers were atheists, or at least agnostics? I know for a fact Thomas Jefferson was the one who put forth the idea of the separation of church and state.

Protestants with a few Deists mixed in (as Jefferson was). They all believed in a a higher power to an extent.

Which did not make them ultraconservative Christians.

Quite frankly, the founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. They had seen the misery that forced religion had caused in Europe.

I think it was something like 28 of 49 founders were C of E, and a number of those were closer to deist ideals than rigid C of E. Definitely not the ultra-conservative paragons of perfect Protestant piety that modern conservatives like to trot out as proof of this being a solely Christian nation.

I'm crossing my fingers that California's demand for textbooks will balance out any curriculum demands Texas can make. Sure, the companies will want to cater to the biggest buyer, but maybe they'll be forced to edit the Texan committee's changes to keep Californians happy with materials.

(This is, of course, ignoring the fact that California won't be buying anything anytime soon. )

Yeah, while we're at it, what the hell is up with that? Of all the things he's done, Arnie rocking up and terminating books for no damn reason really gets my goat.

My district just bought English textbooks. We had to dip into various funds to pay for them. The textbook companies were so desperate for any business at all that they gave us lots of freebies and cut the prices on what they did charge for.

Meanwhile, many districts have laid off lots of people, increased class sizes, made do with old textbooks (not that most of them have changed fundamentally anyway--Algebra is Algebra, no matter when the book was published, and the English textbooks contain much of the same material as I studied in high school in the 90's and my parents studied in high school in the 60's, especially the pre-20th century classics).

I don't see much of anything good happening to the schools in California until the fucking politicians quit fighting and do something useful. So far, school employees are not getting IOUs. Knock on wood that we won't.

Amen to that. To quote the old cliche: "As California goes, so goes the nation." If school workers in Cali start getting IOUs, you can bet your last dollar that it'll only be a matter of time before the other 49 states find themselves having trouble paying their school employees. Heck, here in MA. half our school systems are running on fumes already.

Makes me glad that I graduated before they all went batshit crazy.
Part of the problem I understand is that they have too much material to cover in a school year. A bunch of special interest groups got together and pressured the state school board to make the school year shorter - from late August to Memorial day. They really need to have it from mid-August to mid-July.
While it doesn't surprise this Texan, it does disappoint me.

I figure a large percentage of Texans are probably Catholic being that the Hispanic population is about the same as the white population now days.

These idiots and their ideas are part of the reason my sister home schools her son.
The school district my neices attend just canceled Ag classes because of a lack of a teacher. The only foriegn language they offer is Spanish and that's only at the high school level. My neice told me the other day that their mom is thinking of transfering them in high school to a better school. They didn't change schools when they moved. Someone who works in the district where they lived told them not to change schools as the new district was pretty bad.

quamp wrote:

They really need to have it from mid-August to mid-July.

*eyetwitch*

Edit: We used to have everyone in middle school take Tech (Shop) classes, and they were all cut this year. I wasn't particularly fond of the class back when, but it was a unique and useful experience and I D:-ed to see it go

quamp wrote:

Makes me glad that I graduated before they all went batshit crazy.

Me too.

karmyn31 wrote:

I figure a large percentage of Texans are probably Catholic being that the Hispanic population is about the same as the white population now days.

These idiots and their ideas are part of the reason my sister home schools her son.
The school district my neices attend just canceled Ag classes because of a lack of a teacher. The only foriegn language they offer is Spanish and that's only at the high school level. My neice told me the other day that their mom is thinking of transfering them in high school to a better school. They didn't change schools when they moved. Someone who works in the district where they lived told them not to change schools as the new district was pretty bad.

This may be because your nieces live in a small town. The (public) high school I went to offered Spanish, German, Latin, Japanese, Chinese, French, and Greek for languages.

But doesn't Texas go through this every time the curriculum comes up for review? I think something similar came up the last time social studies was on the table.

For those who don't know, Texas requires its own versions of textbooks, with state-specific content inside and "Texas Edition" on the cover. Given the size of the market, publishers are certainly willing to go along with that.

Bumping this thread for an update.

It passed.

Quote :

The Wichita Falls school district last fall jumped at the opportunity to offer its students a new high school elective course on the Bible after the Legislature created the course in 2007.

That is, until the school leaders learned they would be jumping without a net.

Legislators had built safeguards into the law that were meant to ensure the class on the Bible's impact on history and literature of Western civilization would be taught in an "objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion," and not "from a particular sectarian point of view," according to the law.

Those protections included mandated teacher training, state-approved training materials and curriculum standards deemed constitutional by the state attorney general.

The Texas Education Agency told school districts that it would not provide the training and materials because the Legislature did not budget the $750,000 to do so.

And the curriculum standards approved by the State Board of Education, though constitutional, were vague and provided districts little direction for crafting a course on such a legally and culturally touchy topic.

As a result, the Wichita Falls district administration canceled plans for the Bible class.

"We didn't want our teachers teaching something that we didn't have the legal parameters of," district spokeswoman Renae Murphy said. "There was a lot there that was left up in the air with no details, and we needed a lot more details."

All Texas public school districts for the first time this fall must offer instruction in the literature and history of the Bible under the 2007 law.

Many school districts, including Austin and most other Central Texas districts, say their current high school curriculum already satisfies the requirement because it addresses world religions in history and geography courses.

Many other school districts — there is no definitive count of how many — say they plan to launch a new elective on the Bible if there is enough student demand. The teachers say they are working hard to ensure the course is done right and within the legal constraints, even without the state's help.

Education agency officials point the finger at the Legislature for not providing the specific authority to spend money for the Bible course support.

However, the legislation's author, state Rep. Warren Chisum, R-Pampa, said it was the education agency that dropped the ball.

"That's news to me that they didn't get any money appropriated for it," said Chisum, who was also chairman of the House Appropriations Committee at the time and said he would have earmarked money for his own bill.

There was not a specific budget rider directing the agency to spend the money for the Bible course, nor was the agency precluded from using $750,000, a relatively small amount in its budget, for that purpose.

The agency also did not include a request for the upcoming 2010-11 budget to pay for the Bible course support going forward.

Chisum said that the education agency should have spent that money to help the districts prepare and that the districts "would have been better off if TEA had done what we expected them to do, which is to have the money there to teach the course."

John Keeling, social studies department chairman at Whitehouse High School in East Texas, said he can understand why districts might be reluctant to offer a course.

"If you end up with a teacher that is not prepared, if you end up with a curriculum that is not balanced and academically sound, I could definitely see how a district could get into trouble pretty quick," said Keeling, who taught a Bible literacy course last year.

But he said he is thrilled that Whitehouse High is providing his students this class.

"It almost teaches itself because the kids love it," Keeling said. "It made for very good class discussions. ... Most days I had to kick them out of class."

This course can be done well, and it should be done, teachers say.

"If you're teaching history and literature without the Bible, you're not really teaching it," said Mike Stratton, an art history and humanities teacher at The Woodlands High School in the Conroe school district.

Stratton was in Austin this week for a training course sponsored by the University of Texas department of religious studies and the Atlanta-based Society of Biblical Literature.

The UT course is not the training mandated by the law, but it was created to provide an introduction to the academic teaching of the Bible and help teachers develop "challenging and appropriate" courses, according to its Web site.

On Wednesday, Stratton and 20 other educators took a multidenominational field trip around Austin as part of the course.

They started at the Congregation Agudas Achim synagogue in Northwest Austin and then gathered in the ornate sanctuary of St. Elias Antiochian Orthodox Church on 11th Street near the Capitol to listen to the Rev. David Barr, the church's pastor, explain how the Eastern Orthodox church compares to the predominant form of Christianity practiced in the West.

Barr, an affable man dressed in a long, dark blue garment with a golden cross hanging from his neck, touched on the church's books, its services filled with chanting and singing, architecture, history, art and how it all embodies the faith.

Afterward, the teachers chatted about all the potential lesson ideas that came to them as they heard Barr speak.

Stratton and Pat Gillory, his colleague from another Conroe district high school, said they are developing a curriculum for the spring course that is in high demand and has attracted an eclectic group of interested students.

"I first thought it would be devout kids who just wanted more Bible," Stratton said.

But the students want to take the course because they have an intellectual curiosity and understanding that the Bible is important to grasping literature, history and culture, said Gillory, an English and creative writing teacher at The Woodlands College Park High School.

Stratton and Gillory say they are lucky because the Conroe administration has given them the training, resources and professional support to design the course.

"They see the value of it," Stratton said, "and they want it done right."

Mafiosa wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

At least you don't live there.

Oh. My. God. WHAT THE FUCK! I'm so glad my cousin and her family moved to South Carolina. All sane Texans are welcome in MS.

I cannot believe that teaching the Bible is now required in schools in Texas. Where's the ACLU when you need them?

As an elective, fine, but don't require all schools to offer it. Not all schools offer a wide variety of electives. My high school had the usual ones. Hell, it was a big deal when they added German.

theweirdkind wrote:

Bumping this thread for an update.

It passed.

Quote :

The Wichita Falls school district last fall jumped at the opportunity to offer its students a new high school elective course on the Bible after the Legislature created the course in 2007.

That is, until the school leaders learned they would be jumping without a net.

Legislators had built safeguards into the law that were meant to ensure the class on the Bible's impact on history and literature of Western civilization would be taught in an "objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion," and not "from a particular sectarian point of view," according to the law.

Those protections included mandated teacher training, state-approved training materials and curriculum standards deemed constitutional by the state attorney general.

The Texas Education Agency told school districts that it would not provide the training and materials because the Legislature did not budget the $750,000 to do so.

And the curriculum standards approved by the State Board of Education, though constitutional, were vague and provided districts little direction for crafting a course on such a legally and culturally touchy topic.

As a result, the Wichita Falls district administration canceled plans for the Bible class.

"We didn't want our teachers teaching something that we didn't have the legal parameters of," district spokeswoman Renae Murphy said. "There was a lot there that was left up in the air with no details, and we needed a lot more details."

All Texas public school districts for the first time this fall must offer instruction in the literature and history of the Bible under the 2007 law.

Many school districts, including Austin and most other Central Texas districts, say their current high school curriculum already satisfies the requirement because it addresses world religions in history and geography courses.

Many other school districts — there is no definitive count of how many — say they plan to launch a new elective on the Bible if there is enough student demand. The teachers say they are working hard to ensure the course is done right and within the legal constraints, even without the state's help.

Education agency officials point the finger at the Legislature for not providing the specific authority to spend money for the Bible course support.

However, the legislation's author, state Rep. Warren Chisum, R-Pampa, said it was the education agency that dropped the ball.

"That's news to me that they didn't get any money appropriated for it," said Chisum, who was also chairman of the House Appropriations Committee at the time and said he would have earmarked money for his own bill.

There was not a specific budget rider directing the agency to spend the money for the Bible course, nor was the agency precluded from using $750,000, a relatively small amount in its budget, for that purpose.

The agency also did not include a request for the upcoming 2010-11 budget to pay for the Bible course support going forward.

Chisum said that the education agency should have spent that money to help the districts prepare and that the districts "would have been better off if TEA had done what we expected them to do, which is to have the money there to teach the course."

John Keeling, social studies department chairman at Whitehouse High School in East Texas, said he can understand why districts might be reluctant to offer a course.

"If you end up with a teacher that is not prepared, if you end up with a curriculum that is not balanced and academically sound, I could definitely see how a district could get into trouble pretty quick," said Keeling, who taught a Bible literacy course last year.

But he said he is thrilled that Whitehouse High is providing his students this class.

"It almost teaches itself because the kids love it," Keeling said. "It made for very good class discussions. ... Most days I had to kick them out of class."

This course can be done well, and it should be done, teachers say.

"If you're teaching history and literature without the Bible, you're not really teaching it," said Mike Stratton, an art history and humanities teacher at The Woodlands High School in the Conroe school district.

Stratton was in Austin this week for a training course sponsored by the University of Texas department of religious studies and the Atlanta-based Society of Biblical Literature.

The UT course is not the training mandated by the law, but it was created to provide an introduction to the academic teaching of the Bible and help teachers develop "challenging and appropriate" courses, according to its Web site.

On Wednesday, Stratton and 20 other educators took a multidenominational field trip around Austin as part of the course.

They started at the Congregation Agudas Achim synagogue in Northwest Austin and then gathered in the ornate sanctuary of St. Elias Antiochian Orthodox Church on 11th Street near the Capitol to listen to the Rev. David Barr, the church's pastor, explain how the Eastern Orthodox church compares to the predominant form of Christianity practiced in the West.

Barr, an affable man dressed in a long, dark blue garment with a golden cross hanging from his neck, touched on the church's books, its services filled with chanting and singing, architecture, history, art and how it all embodies the faith.

Afterward, the teachers chatted about all the potential lesson ideas that came to them as they heard Barr speak.

Stratton and Pat Gillory, his colleague from another Conroe district high school, said they are developing a curriculum for the spring course that is in high demand and has attracted an eclectic group of interested students.

"I first thought it would be devout kids who just wanted more Bible," Stratton said.

But the students want to take the course because they have an intellectual curiosity and understanding that the Bible is important to grasping literature, history and culture, said Gillory, an English and creative writing teacher at The Woodlands College Park High School.

Stratton and Gillory say they are lucky because the Conroe administration has given them the training, resources and professional support to design the course.

"They see the value of it," Stratton said, "and they want it done right."

Do they also see that this is going to spark a long and costly legal fight that will inevitable run all the way to the US Supreme Court?

Attempts to introduce religion as a course topic in public schools seldom end well.