Shock Jocks advocate the abuse of transgendered children

ZoZo wrote:

They need to know it's NOT OK.

I suspect they know it's not OK, and do it anyway. Schmucks.

Lexin wrote:

ZoZo wrote:

They need to know it's NOT OK.

I suspect they know it's not OK, and do it anyway. Schmucks.

For attention, they do it for attention.

When I read that excerpt, I felt like I was going to be sick. It's one thing to not want your kids to be transgendered and to discourage it. It's totally another to talk about them like they're sick animals who need to have the desire beaten out of them.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

It's one thing to not want your kids to be transgendered and to discourage it.

That's...not a whole lot better, Harley. And I don't think you can "discourage" someone from being transgendered any more than you can discourage someone from being gay. Sure, you can force your kids to closet themselves when they're around you, or cut you out of their lives altogether because they're sick of having to pretend they're something they're not just to keep you happy, but that won't make them be the "normal" person you wish they were.

"Have you tried not being a slayer?" /Buffy

Quote :

States and Williams revealed to listeners that "transgenders [sic] did not exist four decades ago"

The priests (priestesses?) of Cybele would beg to differ.

Melissa wrote:

Quote :

States and Williams revealed to listeners that "transgenders [sic] did not exist four decades ago"

The priests (priestesses?) of Cybele would beg to differ.

Are those the ones who thought the ultimate devotion to their goddess was to castrate themselves? That's....just a little creepy.

Sheba wrote:

Melissa wrote:

Quote :

States and Williams revealed to listeners that "transgenders [sic] did not exist four decades ago"

The priests (priestesses?) of Cybele would beg to differ.

Are those the ones who thought the ultimate devotion to their goddess was to castrate themselves? That's....just a little creepy.

Yep. Those are the ones. If they survived the castration, they would spend the rest of their lives dressed as, acting like and being referred to as women while serving their goddess. They were the first recorded transgenders. Thanks to modern medical science, the conversion surgery is less dangerous and the results are fuller.
I do question whether or not a very young child could be classified as transgendered. It could be the child just finds they don't fit the narrow stereotypes of their gender. For instance, a little boy might be made fun of by other boys because he doesn't like sports and would rather paint. He might feel he'd be better off if he were a girl. If he was told it's OK not to like sports and lots of men are great artists, he might feel differently. I also think it's a bad idea to publicly televise your kids' personal problems, whether it's about sexuality or obesity or whatever. It's like putting them in a freak show.

Melissa wrote:

Sheba wrote:

Melissa wrote:

Quote :

States and Williams revealed to listeners that "transgenders [sic] did not exist four decades ago"

The priests (priestesses?) of Cybele would beg to differ.

Are those the ones who thought the ultimate devotion to their goddess was to castrate themselves? That's....just a little creepy.

Yep. Those are the ones. If they survived the castration, they would spend the rest of their lives dressed as, acting like and being referred to as women while serving their goddess. They were the first recorded transgenders. Thanks to modern medical science, the conversion surgery is less dangerous and the results are fuller.
I do question whether or not a very young child could be classified as transgendered. It could be the child just finds they don't fit the narrow stereotypes of their gender. For instance, a little boy might be made fun of by other boys because he doesn't like sports and would rather paint. He might feel he'd be better off if he were a girl. If he was told it's OK not to like sports and lots of men are great artists, he might feel differently. I also think it's a bad idea to publicly televise your kids' personal problems, whether it's about sexuality or obesity or whatever. It's like putting them in a freak show.

Gotta wonder how many of them survived that process, given the primitive medical knowledge of the day. Maybe the ones that bled to death were considered the most holy.

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

The counterargument is:

Some of them do know. They're deeply and wholeheartedly convinced. Plus, if you start the hormone treatment before puberty gets its ugly claws into you, it's much easier in the long run, biochemically speaking.

Snoof wrote:

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

The counterargument is:

Some of them do know. They're deeply and wholeheartedly convinced. Plus, if you start the hormone treatment before puberty gets its ugly claws into you, it's much easier in the long run, biochemically speaking.

If I were a parent, I would have to veto any child of mine wanting to get unnecessary hormone treatments. I really wouldn't care if the child was a boy and wanted to wear a dress (though he'd probably get a O.o look) or vice versa, but I'd have to put my foot down and say, "When you're 18, you can do what you want. Until then, no."

Maximilia wrote:

Snoof wrote:

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

The counterargument is:

Some of them do know. They're deeply and wholeheartedly convinced. Plus, if you start the hormone treatment before puberty gets its ugly claws into you, it's much easier in the long run, biochemically speaking.

If I were a parent, I would have to veto any child of mine wanting to get unnecessary hormone treatments. I really wouldn't care if the child was a boy and wanted to wear a dress (though he'd probably get a O.o look) or vice versa, but I'd have to put my foot down and say, "When you're 18, you can do what you want. Until then, no."

Yeah. A person should really wait until they're an adult before they make any decisions that will affect them permanently. How many of us at age 7 were deeply and wholeheartedly convinced that there was a Santa Claus? How many wanted to be firemen or astronauts?

I'd like to see Eugene's take on this.

Personally, I'd have to go child by child. If they're fully convinced, and they've spent a long time persisting in it, and they're a kid whose judgement (for a kid) I can reasonably trust, I'd do my best to get them on hormones to spare them from the "wrong" puberty. If they're not so convinced, then no, at least not until later.

But puberty happens around age 12, so there's more judgement there to trust than a 7-year-old -- and all-around, if they're hurting, waiting for 18 seems way too long.

My two cents.

How did you know at age 7 that you were the sex you are? I knew full well, in my earliest memories, that I WAS NOT a girl. I have always felt like a boy, and knew as far back as I can remember.

For me, the issue is less whether they can know (which I'm sure they can), and more whether I as a parent, who can't read their mind, can trust that they're serious about it.

Melissa wrote:

I do question whether or not a very young child could be classified as transgendered. It could be the child just finds they don't fit the narrow stereotypes of their gender.

Or they could be, y'know, playing. And there's no harm in it - children should be allowed to play dress-up without their caregivers going apeshit and assuming all sorts of things which may or may not be true.

Lexin wrote:

Melissa wrote:

I do question whether or not a very young child could be classified as transgendered. It could be the child just finds they don't fit the narrow stereotypes of their gender.

Or they could be, y'know, playing. And there's no harm in it - children should be allowed to play dress-up without their caregivers going apeshit and assuming all sorts of things which may or may not be true.

There's that too. Take my brother-in-law. Please! (Sorry, had to do that.) He took away a toy his three-year-old was playing with because it had pink sparkly hearts on it. (It was some Valentine's Day novelty.) When BiL told me his son liked trains, I asked if he'd like Starlight Express. When I told him it was a Broadway musical he snapped "My son isn't gay!" I showed my nephew scenes from SE on YouTube, BTW. He called them "people trains".
Agh! Now the song is in my head and I have to go listen to it on YouTube!

Gender identity is something that tends to be pretty ingrained in people from a young age, I believe.

Also, the thing about transgendered kids is, from what I've read on the subject, we're not necessarily talking about little boys who decide it'd be fun to try their mothers' high heels on occasionally. Common signs I've read about when it comes to kids being trans include stuff like refusing to go to the toilet like you would expect someone of that sex to, or being convinced that they will grow genitalia of the opposite sex eventually.

It's not something a kid can choose.

At the same time, I think it's important not to force gender stereotypes on children. If a boy is gay or mtf, stopping him/her from playing with dolls won't change that. And if he's a heterosexual male, playing with dolls isn't going to change that, either.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I had a transgendered child. I would probably want them to wait to take permanent action, just because it is a major decision to alter your body. I feel that way when it comes to making any changes to a child's body. But at the same time, from my understanding, starting hormone therapy when young can make the transition easier. I could be wrong on that.

Either way, I'd want my kid to be happy, and would support them fully.

Gee, I guess I should beat my boyfriend to death, then, too, along with my favourite fag hag. FANKS RADIO.

AngryRobotsInc wrote:

How did you know at age 7 that you were the sex you are? I knew full well, in my earliest memories, that I WAS NOT a girl. I have always felt like a boy, and knew as far back as I can remember.

It was never a question for me. If you'd have asked me at seven if I was REALLY sure I felt like a girl I'd have slowly nodded, then backed away thinking you were one of those 'bad' strangers that tried to steal kids. I dunno, it just seems weird to me to think that a little kid, that little, would know definitively that they don't want to be what they were born as.

On topic: Beating your kids is wrong in ANY context mkay?

Maximilia wrote:

Snoof wrote:

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

The counterargument is:

Some of them do know. They're deeply and wholeheartedly convinced. Plus, if you start the hormone treatment before puberty gets its ugly claws into you, it's much easier in the long run, biochemically speaking.

If I were a parent, I would have to veto any child of mine wanting to get unnecessary hormone treatments. I really wouldn't care if the child was a boy and wanted to wear a dress (though he'd probably get a O.o look) or vice versa, but I'd have to put my foot down and say, "When you're 18, you can do what you want. Until then, no."

And how do you determine "unnecessary"? Being transgendered is not about dressing up. If your ten-year-old son has been saying he's a girl for the last five years, and you know that putting your child on hormones will save it a world of pain, emotionally, and make the transition physically easier later, are you going to "put your foot down" and make her wait until 18? This isn't comparable to a bratty 16-year-old wanting a twilight tattoo.

Hi guys. I was asked to be "at my bitchiest," but I'm feeling good today, chillin' on an artist's commune in NorCal, so I think I'll just be slightly passive aggressive.

Let's take this one at a time.

melissa wrote:

Yep. Those are the ones. If they survived the castration, they would spend the rest of their lives dressed as, acting like and being referred to as women while serving their goddess. They were the first recorded transgenders.

Actually, they weren't. I highly recommend Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors if you're curious about trans history. It's a fantastic book. (With great pictures. *immature*)

Quote :

I do question whether or not a very young child could be classified as transgendered. It could be the child just finds they don't fit the narrow stereotypes of their gender. For instance, a little boy might be made fun of by other boys because he doesn't like sports and would rather paint. He might feel he'd be better off if he were a girl. If he was told it's OK not to like sports and lots of men are great artists, he might feel differently. I also think it's a bad idea to publicly televise your kids' personal problems, whether it's about sexuality or obesity or whatever. It's like putting them in a freak show.

Of course kids who are outside of the gender norm aren't necessarily transgender. Some grow up to be gay, some transgender, some cisgender, some straight. I don't think you're understanding what is meant by "transgender child."

A transgender child is one who says "I am a girl" when their body is male, or "I am a boy" when their body is female, insists upon it, and is intensely unhappy when they are asked to live as their birth sex. "Intensely unhappy" are the key words here. Perhaps "intensely unhappy" isn't a strong enough way of putting it. I mean suicidal, I mean antisocial, I mean utterly miserable. I mean in psychological danger.

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

I knew. Knowing oneself in so basic a way doesn't necessarily require years of experience. I knew it in the same way that I knew that the sky was blue or the grass was green. I'm a guy. Mostly, I knew because when I tried to do the opposite and live as a girl, I didn't actually want to live any sort of life at all.

It's funny to me that you're attempting to argue that kids don't really know when you have two people who formerly were these kids (Robots and myself) telling you that no, we really did know. We experienced this. You didn't. What ground do you see that you can stand on?

Maximilia wrote:

If I were a parent, I would have to veto any child of mine wanting to get unnecessary hormone treatments. I really wouldn't care if the child was a boy and wanted to wear a dress (though he'd probably get a O.o look) or vice versa, but I'd have to put my foot down and say, "When you're 18, you can do what you want. Until then, no."

How are you determining what is necessary or unnecessary? See it from this perspective: If my parents had believed me about being transsexual before I went through puberty, I would not require massive amounts of the reconstructive surgery I someday will. Because of this, I would be significantly happier with my body, much of the depression and dysphoria I experienced in adolescence would have been avoided, and I would be significantly safer from the dangers of hate crimes.

From where I'm standing it looks necessary.

melissa wrote:

Yeah. A person should really wait until they're an adult before they make any decisions that will affect them permanently. How many of us at age 7 were deeply and wholeheartedly convinced that there was a Santa Claus? How many wanted to be firemen or astronauts?

Do you realize you're comparing my gender identity as a child, which was infinitely serious to me and a source of enormous pain, to belief in myths? Do you realize how patronizing that is?

Had I "[waited] until I was an adult" before making the decision to live as a male, I would have killed myself by the time I was fifteen or sixteen. Many trans people cannot afford the wait.

Sheba wrote:

I dunno, it just seems weird to me to think that a little kid, that little, would know definitively that they don't want to be what they were born as.

Yes, I imagine it would seem weird. It seems weird to you because it is outside of your experience. I imagine many things are outside of your experience. Many things are outside of your experience. Many things are outside of my experience. Just because it is out of your experience does not mean it is "weird." There is nothing "weird" about being transgender.

Also, I'm not sure if you realize how generally xenophobic and reductive the whole of your statement seemed.

Sheba wrote:

If you'd have asked me at seven if I was REALLY sure I felt like a girl I'd have slowly nodded, then backed away thinking you were one of those 'bad' strangers that tried to steal kids.

Yes, because questioning the nature of gender, an infinitely peculiar matter from a biological and sociological perspective, is the province of kidnappers. Think before you speak.

grmblfjx wrote:

Maximilia wrote:

Snoof wrote:

Sheba wrote:

Yeah, I agree about the kids though. A kid is too young to understand that kind of thing. How can they know what they want to be or are when they've had so little experience?

The counterargument is:

Some of them do know. They're deeply and wholeheartedly convinced. Plus, if you start the hormone treatment before puberty gets its ugly claws into you, it's much easier in the long run, biochemically speaking.

If I were a parent, I would have to veto any child of mine wanting to get unnecessary hormone treatments. I really wouldn't care if the child was a boy and wanted to wear a dress (though he'd probably get a O.o look) or vice versa, but I'd have to put my foot down and say, "When you're 18, you can do what you want. Until then, no."

And how do you determine "unnecessary"? Being transgendered is not about dressing up. If your ten-year-old son has been saying he's a girl for the last five years, and you know that putting your child on hormones will save it a world of pain, emotionally, and make the transition physically easier later, are you going to "put your foot down" and make her wait until 18? This isn't comparable to a bratty 16-year-old wanting a twilight tattoo.

Yes, actually. It's unnecessary because it's not required. I understand how it can help the process, and I would be supportive as much as I can, but it is an unnecessary treatment. It's not required for them to live or to maintain health. An argument can be made on how it would help them mentally and emotionally, but you can also get therapy. If they were seeing a therapist and the therapist recommended it for their mental well-being, then I would seriously consider allowing it.

EDIT: Just saw Eugene's post. To respond, if my child wanted to live as the opposite gender, I'd let them. I'm all for them expressing themselves how they need to. If they insisted on the hormone therapy, especially at a young age (? which, if a child knows about that at a young age, "young" being relative but I'm thinking below 11, that'd be kinda shocking to me anyway), I would have them see a therapist. Why? Don't all transgendered people have to live for a year as the opposite sex before a clinic will do a sex change operation? I can't imagine how it'd be different for kids. If the therapist recommended it, then I would (as said above) seriously consider it, because the health and happiness of my child--whatever they are, male, female, unknown, gay, straight, etc etc etc--would be of paramount importance. Yet it IS a life-changing decision, and to have them make such a drastic decision at a young age seems irresponsible to me, the would-be parent, without having professionals go over it.

No, it's not necessary medication to me. Sorry.

This is... only sort of related... but hey, there are people here who might know!

Is it possible to be transgendered, but gay? I mean, for example... a guy who knows that he is a girl on the inside... but who is still attracted to girls?

I was just wondering

Seule wrote:

This is... only sort of related... but hey, there are people here who might know!

Is it possible to be transgendered, but gay? I mean, for example... a guy who knows that he is a girl on the inside... but who is still attracted to girls?

Yes.