US soldier kills Afghan civilians in Kandahar

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

did you never read any WWI soldier poetry in school

You're assuming Mikey can read.

And before you say "BUT HE'S OBVIOUSLY READING THESE BOARDS!" I am not yet convinced that he isn't just banging his head on a keyboard and he just happens to produce things that make sense and are related to the topic at hand.

Which head?

rachel wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

did you never read any WWI soldier poetry in school

You're assuming Mikey can read.

And before you say "BUT HE'S OBVIOUSLY READING THESE BOARDS!" I am not yet convinced that he isn't just banging his head on a keyboard and he just happens to produce things that make sense and are related to the topic at hand.

Which head?

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FOR THAT MENTAL IMAGE
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I don't suppose anybody else has noticed how quickly this has all been swept under the carpet. The press here in the UK leapt on a Swedish bus crash at the first opportunity.

I mean, we normally don't give a toss about Sweden. We were just that desperate for another topic.

rachel wrote:

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Quote :

did you never read any WWI soldier poetry in school

You're assuming Mikey can read.

And before you say "BUT HE'S OBVIOUSLY READING THESE BOARDS!" I am not yet convinced that he isn't just banging his head on a keyboard and he just happens to produce things that make sense and are related to the topic at hand.

Which head?

... that was just...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

I don't suppose anybody else has noticed how quickly this has all been swept under the carpet. The press here in the UK leapt on a Swedish bus crash at the first opportunity.

I mean, we normally don't give a toss about Sweden. We were just that desperate for another topic.

Swiss bus crash, Harley. Swiss.

I swear you remind me of all the morons in my school who, after six years, would still ask me how was living in Switzerland like when I lived in Sweden. Basic reading comprehension, you lack it.

Besides, who says they swept it under the carpet? They could go back to it at any time, sometimes there just isn't more to say about a horrible thing that happened for a while. And that bus crash is pretty damn horrific.

Spotts1701 wrote:

Charles Pierce pretty well eviscerates the PTSD argument here.

Some bloviating asshole wrote:

Some psychologist invents a category, and that category is supposed to be some sort of mitigation because, well, war is hell? Please.

Seriously? Is this the "evisceration" you're talking about?

Or is it this:

Quote :

This country spent six or eight years under the barely distinguishable leadership of C-Plus Augustus when the Avignon Presidency did not give a pale green shit about soldiers with traumatic brain injuries, or PTSD resulting from their revolving door deployments to Iraq and/or Afghanistan. It is far too late for people to start excusing the alleged murderer of Afghani children on the grounds of physical or mental disorders about which we couldn't give a damn for nearly a decade:

I don't know about PTSD, but Mr. Pierce is definitely suffering from a severe case of Cranio-Rectal Insertion.

Quote :

six or eight years

"Eviscerates the PTSD argument"? Stupid fucker can't even add.

Cyberwulf wrote:

"Eviscerates the PTSD argument"? Stupid fucker can't even add.

Me thinks spotts's sarcastic attempt failed.

Cyberwulf wrote:

Spotts1701 wrote:

Charles Pierce pretty well eviscerates the PTSD argument here.

Some bloviating asshole wrote:

Some psychologist invents a category, and that category is supposed to be some sort of mitigation because, well, war is hell? Please.

Seriously? Is this the "evisceration" you're talking about?

Or is it this:

Quote :

This country spent six or eight years under the barely distinguishable leadership of C-Plus Augustus when the Avignon Presidency did not give a pale green shit about soldiers with traumatic brain injuries, or PTSD resulting from their revolving door deployments to Iraq and/or Afghanistan. It is far too late for people to start excusing the alleged murderer of Afghani children on the grounds of physical or mental disorders about which we couldn't give a damn for nearly a decade:

I don't know about PTSD, but Mr. Pierce is definitely suffering from a severe case of Cranio-Rectal Insertion.

Quote :

six or eight years

"Eviscerates the PTSD argument"? Stupid fucker can't even add.

I did read SOME article (if I can muster up half a fuck, I'll try to track it down) that raised some questions about it, however. It pointed out that very few WWII vets had any real symptoms of PTSD. Sure, most of them would rather not actively relive the memories of being shot at from every direction if they can avoid it, but very few did anything like drinking themselves down a spiral that leads to someone getting shot.

But afterwards, especially after 'Nam, there was an influx of crybaby mental patients. "BAWWW, I SAW MY FRIEND GET HIS FACE SHOT OFF BY CHARLIE" they would whine. The article tried to explain this.

One theory was that in WWII, many infantry soldiers wouldn't actually aim to shoot the enemy. They would just point their rifle in the general direction of where they should be shooting and squeeze off a couple shots to appear to be doing their job. They didn't have the nerve/sociopathic streak to line up another "human" (I mean, are Germans REALLY people? ) in the sights and pull the trigger. As a result, there was less psychological "trauma."

After the military brass realized this was the case, they structured training in such a way that would ingrain a killer instinct/desensitivity to killing/whatever you want to call it in order to get soldiers to stop wasting bullets and actually SHOOT the enemy. This mild mind rape would mess with the conscience of otherwise decent human beings and result in PTSD symptoms.

Another possibility was a change in culture to sympathize with anyone who exhibited any sign of mental distress. America went from a country of "SUCK IT UP NANCYBOY" to "AWW POOR BABY HERE HAVE SOME PILLS AND THERAPY AND ASSPATS." This actually incentivized mental illness, which lead to more cases of mental illness. Meanwhile, in England, a country that went through the same "Train the Soldiers to Actually Kill" bit from above that America did, they didn't warm up to mental illness all that much. And the rates of PTSD among British soldiers increased FAR less than it did with American soldiers.

The point Mr. Pierce makes is that if the accused were in a civilian courtroom and made the same argument to mitigate gunning down 16 people, the very same people trying to defend him now would want him strung up before opening arguments even began. And if a "scary Muslim" had done the same thing, he'd be sitting in Gitmo right now regardless of why he did it.

Nobody gets to stand up and say that this guy gets a pass because he's a soldier. But they sure will try, and they will not even notice the staggering hypocrisy of their argument because they're too blinded by jingoism to recognize it. It's William Calley all over again.

Spotts1701 wrote:

The point Mr. Pierce makes is that if the accused were in a civilian courtroom and made the same argument to mitigate gunning down 16 people, the very same people trying to defend him now would want him strung up before opening arguments even began. And if a "scary Muslim" had done the same thing, he'd be sitting in Gitmo right now regardless of why he did it.

Nobody gets to stand up and say that this guy gets a pass because he's a soldier. But they sure will try, and they will not even notice the staggering hypocrisy of their argument because they're too blinded by jingoism to recognize it. It's William Calley all over again.

Just because our justice system has failed those other groups of people doesn't mean that it's justifiable to toss PTSD under the bus. People will indeed try to say that he gets a "pass" because he's a soldier. But if he does in fact have scrambled brains, then he needs treatment in congruence with his incarceration. He doesn't get a "pass" because he is a soldier, he gets a "pass" because the state decided that we should even be in those wars in the first place.

I hope he is tried and found guilty. I would be mildly surprised if he really did have a mental disorder, either innate or the result of trauma. But if he does, the fair action to take would be for the state to take responsibility and get him some serious mental care.

Also, that article was terrible regardless of the opinion, I mean come on it was three paragraphs long and one of them was a quote.

Spotts wrote:

The point Mr. Pierce makes is that if the accused were in a civilian courtroom and made the same argument to mitigate gunning down 16 people, the very same people trying to defend him now would want him strung up before opening arguments even began.

Maybe because the civilian hadn't spent four tours of duty waist deep in Stuff Blowing Up and getting shot at and all that jazz, and hadn't likely suffered a "traumatic head injury," whatever the details were.

Besides, the people demanding that this guy be executed are either Chris or the idiot hippies who'd want the civilian spared.

Go back to reading your Judge Dredd comic books, champ.

Hawaiian Shirt wrote:

Also, that article was terrible regardless of the opinion, I mean come on it was three paragraphs long and one of them was a quote.

It would be a terrible article, but it's not one; it's just a post on his blog. Last I heard, nobody required blog posts to have any particular length. (Although I don't hang out at ones like this that only hit a few sentences on a good day.)

Spotts1701 wrote:

The point Mr. Pierce makes

He makes it extremely badly. Sneering at post-traumatic stress disorder and describing it as a category that some psychiatrist invented makes him look like an ignorant shithead.

Quote :

Nobody gets to stand up and say that this guy gets a pass because he's a soldier.

What about the people saying, "Perhaps this guy has a severe mental condition, suffered a psychotic break, and perhaps prison is not the answer"?

I don't know whether PTSD exists, or it's just used as an excuse for hugs and sympathy, but I do know this - true or not this is one case where the military are milking it for all it's worth to keep themselves from looking like they trained a nutjob then set him to run loose with a gun.

If he wasn't a soldier, he wouldn't have that sort of excuse.

If it's genuine at all; PTSD doesn't commonly encourage soldiers to shoot up people. It's other kinds of insanity that do that. Except that now it's being used as an excuse, it IS associated with shooting civilians.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

I don't know whether PTSD exists, or it's just used as an excuse for hugs and sympathy, but I do know this - true or not this is one case where the military are milking it for all it's worth to keep themselves from looking like they trained a nutjob then set him to run loose with a gun.

If he wasn't a soldier, he wouldn't have that sort of excuse.

If it's genuine at all; PTSD doesn't commonly encourage soldiers to shoot up people. It's other kinds of insanity that do that. Except that now it's being used as an excuse, it IS associated with shooting civilians.

honestly Harley, how is that a shock... to ANYONE at this point, that the military is training loose cannons? If anything you'd think this is another mark on the line of failed military tests, since that's all they ever call them now.

I read some where today that there's talk amongst the higher ups about executing him, basically because he killed children as well as adults. While adults could, I suppose, be considered possible hostiles, most cultures, even ones at war, frown on the killing of children.

In answer to Mikey's question-PTSD was known as shell-shock following WW I and WW II, and ranged from the soldier being so mentally unstable they spent the rest of their lives locked up to drinking heavily to getting involved in crime. My dad served in the Army in WW II, and I don't recall ever hearing him talk about it, though I do recall my mother talking about how, for months after he came back, he'd wake up from nightmares crying about 'the children' and hit the dirt every time a car backfired. I also have a very clear memory of visiting one of his brothers in a VA Medical center when I was around six of so (he was dying of liver failure), and there being several patients in the ward who were suffering from 'shell shock.' Some just lay in bed staring blankly at the ceiling, while others were strapped to the bed and spent all their time screaming and reliving what they'd gone through.

So PTSD existed long before Korea and Vietnam. It just had different names, and no one really knew how to go about handling it.

PTSD can happen to civilians, too. A few years ago, there was a girl at the school I was working for who had been raped at a party. She didn't tell anyone until, one day at school, a boy who resembled her rapist tried to talk to her and she freaked out and broke his nose.

Lady Anne wrote:

PTSD can happen to civilians, too. A few years ago, there was a girl at the school I was working for who had been raped at a party. She didn't tell anyone until, one day at school, a boy who resembled her rapist tried to talk to her and she freaked out and broke his nose.

It can happen with any traumatic experience--I know of cancer survivors (particularly ones with prolonged or brutal treatments) who have been diagnosed with varying levels of PTSD.

Quote :

While adults could, I suppose, be considered possible hostiles, most cultures, even ones at war, frown on the killing of children.

Aren't the Tailban and similar extremists the ones that will arm or strap a bomb to a "kid" because they know most soldiers would hesitate to kill them?

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

Quote :

While adults could, I suppose, be considered possible hostiles, most cultures, even ones at war, frown on the killing of children.

Aren't the Tailban and similar extremists the ones that will arm or strap a bomb to a "kid" because they know most soldiers would hesitate to kill them?

Didn't the Allied forces and the Underground movement use kids to spy on the Nazis for the exact same reason? For fuck's sake...

*sarcasm mode*

Yah Jay/Chris, and that's EXACTLY why we should let this one blow under the radar.

*/sarcasm mode*

So yeah, Rabid Badger mentions PTSD, and a lot of sufferers would rather not even go near a battlefield again, let alone go around deliberately killing kids - a number of whom, I think the article said, were shot while sleeping. Oh, sure, I dare say there's at least one... but using it as an excuse for cold-blooded murder... that's just insulting to real sufferers.

And though Lady Anne got there first, I was also going to say that yes, lots of people are candidates for PTSD, but THEY don't all get free sympathy passes. It only seems to work if you're a soldier nowadays.

He should be executed. Publicly, in Afganistan, with his own rifle. Because he's a fucking psychopath. Because he slaughtered children. As an example to any other psychopaths in the army who think they can get away with murder because they're wearing combats.

Incidentally, a related article says it's 16 dead. Oh, he 'simply snapped', huh? His fourth tour of duty, huh? Then I suppose he should just get six months in a psyche ward and a hug. The US army really needs to clean up their public relations, stop giving guns to anybody who applies to be a soldier, and FUCKING QUIT KILLING CIVILIANS.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Harley Harley Harley Harley Harley Harley...

Harley...


...


Fuck you kay? Kay.

No, Doobie. Fuck YOU. Because I'm fucking SICK of people picking one line out of my posts and hating on it, and ignoring the rest.

And you can't even pick one line.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Gurl, you're just embarrassing yourself...

Hawaiian Shirt wrote:

Just because our justice system has failed those other groups of people doesn't mean that it's justifiable to toss PTSD under the bus.

Yes. The extreme hypocrisy does not make PTSD not A Thing.