Shit Has Gotten Real in Egypt

Braigwen wrote:

Syria just cut their internet services. It looks like this is spreading like wild fire.

Hmm...cutting a service in case people might use it to revolt? Wouldn't that, you know, just piss people off more? And, as I noted earlier, cutting Internet service didn't stop the revolt in Egypt. Twenty-one years ago, lack of Internet service didn't stop the collapse of the Soviet Union (yes, there was a form of Internet in 1990, but it was primitive and most people didn't have it).

If anything, cutting off internet has only made this worse. Without a way to organise peaceful protests, people are simply taking to the street and succumbing to the chaos. It looks like looters have started to move in among the protests and I can only imagine things are only going to hell from here on out. There's reports that over 60 people have been killed so far.

Lady Anne wrote:

Braigwen wrote:

Syria just cut their internet services. It looks like this is spreading like wild fire.

Hmm...cutting a service in case people might use it to revolt? Wouldn't that, you know, just piss people off more?

Not enough. When was the last time you threw molotov cocktails into the office of your ISP because they ripped you off over something? To a totalitarian government, keeping the people ignorant in case of dissent is always preferable to being worried about whether you inconvenience them.

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And, as I noted earlier, cutting Internet service didn't stop the revolt in Egypt. Twenty-one years ago, lack of Internet service didn't stop the collapse of the Soviet Union (yes, there was a form of Internet in 1990, but it was primitive and most people didn't have it).

One of these things is not like the other.

Penguin wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

And, as I noted earlier, cutting Internet service didn't stop the revolt in Egypt. Twenty-one years ago, lack of Internet service didn't stop the collapse of the Soviet Union (yes, there was a form of Internet in 1990, but it was primitive and most people didn't have it).

One of these things is not like the other.

Want another example? Lack of Internet service did nothing to stop the race riots in the summer of '68.

Lady Anne wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

And, as I noted earlier, cutting Internet service didn't stop the revolt in Egypt. Twenty-one years ago, lack of Internet service didn't stop the collapse of the Soviet Union (yes, there was a form of Internet in 1990, but it was primitive and most people didn't have it).

One of these things is not like the other.

Want another example?

Nope.

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Lack of Internet service did nothing to stop the race riots in the summer of '68.

Again, one of these things is not like the other.

Point is, the current regimes with the tightest grip on their populations are the ones who have an iron grip on information. This is a problem for most totalitarian states: They have to keep up with technology in order for the ruling elite to stay rich, but the existence of the Internet makes that inherently problematic. Informed people are difficult to control; they can see things are far better on the outside of their respective hellhole and either want to leave or change the country they're in to be less hellhole-ish. The latter are the biggest threat.

For example, North Korea has so tightly controlled information to the point where, for the majority of the population, the most advanced technology they come into contact with is 1960s-vintage. Only the ruling elite get to see things like modern computers, the internet, and iPods. The rest of the population is led to believe, as they starve to death, that North Korea is the pinnacle of wealth and technology, and the reason they need such a big army is to keep the rest of the world, which is incredibly jealous of North Korea's accomplishments, from invading and stealing it all. The people honestly believe this.

The only way this can change is by people learning the truth, and in the modern era, the Internet is crucial to this. But without the Internet, the only hope for the North Koreans is all hearsay from people who sneak across the border for seasonal work in China and then come back to tell their countrymen of the modern comforts they saw there.

In China. Which is another country that loves to control information. They've made enough allowances that the people wouldn't actually care enough to resist the government, but haven't made so many that they can't maintain control. That's why China tries to maintain control over the Internet and block whatever sites they don't like.

Saying "Oh well revolutions and riots happened without the Internet" is every bit as much a non sequitur as saying something like "Well wars happened without artillery." Maybe so, but someone who attempted to do so in modern times would be a fool.

As for riots. well. A bunch of ignorant savages can gather in the streets, assault people and destroy property all day long. Whether or not it actually accomplishes something other than make the people with whom they sympathize look worse, that is again up to the dissemination and control of information. If you don't know why people are running around screaming epithets at all and sundry, you're going to assume that these people are just a bunch of loud, drunken idiots. You have to know why they're doing it, and that isn't as easy as it sounds when anyone holding a sign is getting curb-stomped and the government has the media broadcasting that it's the work of terrorist groups.

Also, "riot" is not synonymous with "revolt." A revolt is something that takes more than a bunch of boozed-up jerks getting together on a holiday weekend. The Soviet Union didn't collapse because a bunch of college kids took to the streets and chanted rhyming slogans, either.

I'm just recalling the climax of Ghost in the Shell, 2nd Gig. Except, they aren't cutting off information from getting out so that no one would know the nuke they dropped on the refugees wasn't the refugees committing mass suicide.

Al-Jazeera has been ordered to cease operations in Cairo.

The Egyptian Air Force has also buzzed the crowds in the capital to try and force them to obey the curfew (with little results).

Prisoners are escaping by the dozens as police are pulled away to handle crowd control (or abandon their posts altogether).

And the U.S. is recommending all citizens and non-essential Embassy staff evacuate the country.

If Mubarak thinks that he can hold on through a seventh day of protests, he's either misinformed or stupid. He can try a military crackdown, but considering the army hasn't already started shooting are they really going to follow that order now?

I_Lam_Edhellen wrote:

I'm just recalling the climax of Ghost in the Shell, 2nd Gig. Except, they aren't cutting off information from getting out so that no one would know the nuke they dropped on the refugees wasn't the refugees committing mass suicide.

The last thing we need is more senseless Tachikoma deaths.

Now Egyptians are using Morse Code and dial-up modems to communicate.

Oh, and Anonymous is getting in on it.

Did you see Anonymous's message to Egypt? Chilling.

ZoZo wrote:

Did you see Anonymous's message to Egypt? Chilling.

Whoever makes these videos are geniuses. I spent most of the video with goosebumps from the images (not to mention those background sounds).

Hm, this doesn't make much sense. News here is describing "fighting" in Egypt, but the Al Jazeera live coverage doesn't say anything by that. Calls for a nationwide strike, maybe, but no outright violence. Anyone else hear about that?

Lady Anne wrote:

Now Egyptians are using Morse Code and dial-up modems to communicate.

Oh, and Anonymous is getting in on it.

I had a hunch they might get involved sooner or later.

Islamageddon!

We're fucked, guys.

Well, you might be. I've already got a bhurka!

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If the Muslim brotherhood takes Egypt, it destabilizes the entire Middle East. It sets the Middle East – if not immediately, within a reasonable period of time, sets the entire thing on fire …

As soon as anyone thinks that there is a shot, the Muslim radicals in Europe and in England rise up, once they [the Communists and the Muslims] start to work in concert, Europe is done.

Seriously... Europe is in Egypt's sights! Look at how far they've advanced already:

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Penguin wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Lady Anne wrote:

And, as I noted earlier, cutting Internet service didn't stop the revolt in Egypt. Twenty-one years ago, lack of Internet service didn't stop the collapse of the Soviet Union (yes, there was a form of Internet in 1990, but it was primitive and most people didn't have it).

One of these things is not like the other.

Want another example?

Nope.

Quote :

Lack of Internet service did nothing to stop the race riots in the summer of '68.

Again, one of these things is not like the other.

Pre-Internet forms of communication still exist. They didn't magically disappear, okay?

Just because you can't imagine groups of people being able to function and organize themselves without the Internet, that doesn't mean it can't happen. Yes, it's harder, but it's still possible to come up with more examples of political revolutions that happened without the Internet than with (basically every one of them that happened pre-1994, as before that the Internet wasn't powerful enough or widespread enough to be a significant factor).

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once they [the Communists and the Muslims] start to work in concert, Europe is done.

Why in the world would they do that? Communism is militantly secular, if not atheist.

WD40 wrote:

Seriously... Europe is in Egypt's sights! Look at how far they've advanced already:

Interesting interpretation. I just thought FOX dun goofed

Anonymous made another one...

Notanoni wrote:

Pre-Internet forms of communication still exist. They didn't magically disappear, okay?

Well, no shit. They're also far easier to control.

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Just because you can't imagine groups of people being able to function and organize themselves without the Internet, that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Ha, ha! Yes indeed! I am a nerd. You got me there, Internet!

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Yes, it's harder, but it's still possible to come up with more examples of political revolutions that happened without the Internet than with (basically every one of them that happened pre-1994, as before that the Internet wasn't powerful enough or widespread enough to be a significant factor).

You're starting off with my point: Removing the Internet from the equation makes revolution harder. This has basically been the conversation so far:

"Why in the world would they try to shut down the Internet? THAT WILL ONLY MAKE PEOPLE ANGRIER!"
"Because it's an effective way to suppress the flow of information, and thus, revolution?"
"BUT RIOTS AND REVOLUTIONS HAPPENED WITHOUT THE INTERNET"

I never said that they didn't. But it's not like a couple of governments got up in the morning and said OH HEY I FEEL LIKE BEING A DICK TODAY, NO INTERNETS!

Now I'm getting flashbacks from Ghost in the Shell, Stand Alone Complex. That logo reminds me a lot of The Laughing Man.

grmblfjx wrote:

WD40 wrote:

Seriously... Europe is in Egypt's sights! Look at how far they've advanced already:

Interesting interpretation. I just thought FOX dun goofed

FOX make mistake? That's unpossiable!

Ah! Good point.

Penguin wrote:

Notanoni wrote:

Pre-Internet forms of communication still exist. They didn't magically disappear, okay?

Well, no shit. They're also far easier to control.

Of course, how stupid of me! That's why the news is full of reports about how Egypt did not shut off the Internet, and how Egypt did successfully shut off all other forms of communication!

Of course it's easier than shutting off the Internet!

Notanoni wrote:

Of course, how stupid of me! That's why the news is full of reports about how Egypt did not shut off the Internet, and how Egypt did successfully shut off all other forms of communication!

Of course it's easier than shutting off the Internet!

If missing the point was a sport, you could go pro. You ever think that there can be forms of control beyond "completely cut off" and "unrestricted, free-flowing?"

Notanoni wrote:

Penguin wrote:

Notanoni wrote:

Pre-Internet forms of communication still exist. They didn't magically disappear, okay?

Well, no shit. They're also far easier to control.

Of course, how stupid of me! That's why the news is full of reports about how Egypt did not shut off the Internet, and how Egypt did successfully shut off all other forms of communication!

Of course it's easier than shutting off the Internet!

Because the government of Egypt cares that soccer moms in the western world are seeing news coverage of protests and problems that will cause them to say "the government of Egypt should treat it's people better" while taking action in the form of going to the mall to get some shopping done.

Alhazred wrote:

Because the government of Egypt cares that soccer moms in the western world are seeing news coverage of protests and problems that will cause them to say "the government of Egypt should treat it's people better" while taking action in the form of going to the mall to get some shopping done.

...what?