Evangelist claims that Rapture will happen in 2011

KelinciHutan wrote:

All this does assume that the whole Rapture -> tribulation -> progressively weirder and weirder stuff happening -> Glorious Appearing interpretation of Revelations is correct. Which is sort of my whole point. There are schools of thought that alledge the world is going to get better and better up until Jesus returns, people who think there will be a rapture but no tribulation, people who think the Antichrist might not be one person, and all points in between. There's people who say we're in the tribulation now. So, ultimately, there's no way to know if it's going to go down like that.

A more perfect demonstration of prophecy's worthlessness I could not have asked for.

Quote :

If all Christians in the world suddenly vanished into thin air, I suspect a lot of people would get very suspicious of anyone who tried to take over the world overtly, point. Perhaps the Antichrist would be a business-owner? Control everything in reality whilst not having any nominal political power? I don't know.

Sorry, no.

Those books had all the children in the world disappear as well. Because, God wouldn't kill all the children in the world, right? I mean, aside from that one time when I guess He must have since they didn't have an ark. Don't look at me, though. I didn't make this shit up.

So, if every kid on Earth was suddenly kidnapped, that would be the end of the establishment. Money is meaningless in a world like that. Business power won't mean anything when Anarchy with a capital A sits in. Nobody's going to keep doing business as the world comes crashing down.

If anything, their wealth will make the rich into scapegoats as people desperately try to placate God. Someone will think, "Hey, didn't Jesus say something about rich people not getting into heaven?" Moments later, the Antichrist is getting strung up, along with the gays, Jews, pagans, atheists, and anyone else who's different. That's just how scared people work. Maybe next time he'll be a sociologist, instead of an accountant.

That's a worst-case scenario, not that it matters. Even if God lowered Himself to tossing all the kids under the bus to save the prophecy, I don't think it would save civilization even in the short term. The panic would last for weeks, during which time countless vital system would go offline and shut down. People would turn on their leaders, resulting in global civil war. The most the Antichrist could achieve is to become the warlord of some pitiful band of survivors, and the first time he doesn't feed his followers, they rise up and eat him out of desperation. Maybe some fuckall country like North Korea could survive for a while, until they realize how much they relied on international aid.

The only alternative is to rapture a single sect or group small enough to not be missed. In that case, faith is essentially meaningless. Even if you love God with all your heart and try your hardest to follow the rules in the Bible as you see them, your odds of being raptured are statistically insignificant.

I just can't picture any way for the Rapture to work in the real world while it still resembles "the Rapture." The popular version of the story just doesn't hold water, and I don't really see how anything wildly different can be called "the Rapture" when this is the popular meaning of the word.

Lysander wrote:

a long explanation

Well, as I said, I'm skeptical of a rapture the way that the Left Behind books lay one out. For a lot of the reasons you mentioned.

As to your problems with prophecy in general...I'm gonna let that one set. It's a much longer discussion than I have energy for and it's not a subject I've done much reading on. I'm sure there's some thoughts by people older and smarter than me in one of the many Biblical commentaries if you were curious.

My father told me once that they warned them in Bible School to NOT try and interpret the books of Ezekial and Revelations literally. Because if you believe they were divine visions from God, they were visited upon people who were seeing things that existed far into the future and had no way of interpreting them except in the venacular of their day. That's why it all reads like gibberish-it was written by men who were being shown things that were going to happen in the far future that they couldn't even begin to understand. Beasts with seven horns and seven heads? My father was never convinced they were speaking about literal beasts-he felt they were trying to describe something they simply had no point of reference for in the only way they could.

Same with the Antichrist. It wasn't uncommon in Biblical times for whole continents to be controlled by one person, if they had a vast enough army. We can't conceive of it, because we're used to, for the most part, smaller, more orderly governments.

What is interesting is that almost every civilization in existence has their own version of 'The End Times.' It may not be written down and be purely spoken word, but it exists and is still passed down from generation to generation even if people no longer really believe it. So it's not as if Christianity has a lock on the world ending horribly. Most cultures (and religions) have their own version of how the world will end. The Rapture is just the one most of us are familiar with.

I always thought the Antichrist would end up being some sort of leader on the religion front. I mean, think about it. People scared and looking for someone to reassure them and lead them into heaven like those who disappeared?

bleachedblackcat wrote:

I always thought the Antichrist would end up being some sort of leader on the religion front. I mean, think about it. People scared and looking for someone to reassure them and lead them into heaven like those who disappeared?

He could be. During the first three years of the Tribulation period, he's apparently going to be charismatic enough to pretty much unite the entire world. That's something not even Jesus could do in his day.

Also, people forget that the first three years of the tribulation are essentially going to be like the golden age mankind has always dreamed of. What the Left Behind books failed to mention (but which is covered explicitly in Revelations), is that even if you were a Christian and manage to survive the first three years, there's no way you'll survive the final three, which is when the Mark of the Beast comes into it. Because without the Mark you won't be able to buy or sell or do anything. If you were an on-the-fence Christian who missed the Rapture, the only way you'll escape taking the Mark is by being willing to die rather than do it. And I suspect the death will not be a quick, painless one.

Lysander wrote:

KelinciHutan wrote:

All this does assume that the whole Rapture -> tribulation -> progressively weirder and weirder stuff happening -> Glorious Appearing interpretation of Revelations is correct. Which is sort of my whole point. There are schools of thought that alledge the world is going to get better and better up until Jesus returns, people who think there will be a rapture but no tribulation, people who think the Antichrist might not be one person, and all points in between. There's people who say we're in the tribulation now. So, ultimately, there's no way to know if it's going to go down like that.

A more perfect demonstration of prophecy's worthlessness I could not have asked for.

Quote :

If all Christians in the world suddenly vanished into thin air, I suspect a lot of people would get very suspicious of anyone who tried to take over the world overtly, point. Perhaps the Antichrist would be a business-owner? Control everything in reality whilst not having any nominal political power? I don't know.

Sorry, no.

Those books had all the children in the world disappear as well. Because, God wouldn't kill all the children in the world, right? I mean, aside from that one time when I guess He must have since they didn't have an ark. Don't look at me, though. I didn't make this shit up.

So, if every kid on Earth was suddenly kidnapped, that would be the end of the establishment. Money is meaningless in a world like that. Business power won't mean anything when Anarchy with a capital A sits in. Nobody's going to keep doing business as the world comes crashing down.

If anything, their wealth will make the rich into scapegoats as people desperately try to placate God. Someone will think, "Hey, didn't Jesus say something about rich people not getting into heaven?" Moments later, the Antichrist is getting strung up, along with the gays, Jews, pagans, atheists, and anyone else who's different. That's just how scared people work. Maybe next time he'll be a sociologist, instead of an accountant.

That's a worst-case scenario, not that it matters. Even if God lowered Himself to tossing all the kids under the bus to save the prophecy, I don't think it would save civilization even in the short term. The panic would last for weeks, during which time countless vital system would go offline and shut down. People would turn on their leaders, resulting in global civil war. The most the Antichrist could achieve is to become the warlord of some pitiful band of survivors, and the first time he doesn't feed his followers, they rise up and eat him out of desperation. Maybe some fuckall country like North Korea could survive for a while, until they realize how much they relied on international aid.

The only alternative is to rapture a single sect or group small enough to not be missed. In that case, faith is essentially meaningless. Even if you love God with all your heart and try your hardest to follow the rules in the Bible as you see them, your odds of being raptured are statistically insignificant.

I just can't picture any way for the Rapture to work in the real world while it still resembles "the Rapture." The popular version of the story just doesn't hold water, and I don't really see how anything wildly different can be called "the Rapture" when this is the popular meaning of the word.

I hate to point out one thing here. Not ALL the children of the world would disappear--only ones who have been baptized. And Christianity has 2.1 billion followers, of that population, approximately one third are children. So, approximately 700 million children would disappear or die or what-have-you, which is a substantial number, but it's not all.

I just wasted five minutes of my life looking up worthless facts. Huzzah.

Well, a lot of believers in this claim that all children are automatically Raptured.

Thanos6 wrote:

Well, a lot of believers in this claim that all children are automatically Raptured.

The church I was raised in believed in what they called 'The age of accountability.' I.E., the point at which a child becomes truly aware of the difference between right and wrong. IIRC, the age of accountability was around 7-8; before that, it was felt the child wasn't mature enough to understand the concept of salvation. Anyone under the age of accountability (including infants, since the church didn't believe babies were born with original sin and had to be baptized immediately after birth) would, therefore, be raptured.

It's been awhile since I've read Revelation, but the Mark of the Beast happens during the Tribulation, right? I remember people flipping out when dogs and cats started getting microchipped, because "This is just a step away from chipping humans--which will become the Mark!!!".

The Rapture-believing Christians shouldn't have anything to worry about when it comes to being "chipped"/marked (and I do wonder when the "mark" became the "chip"...at least in my community), because they'll be long gone because of the Rapture. So why do they make such a big deal over it? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Also--Rabid Badger, were you raised in the Assemblies? That's where I was originally from, and everything you've said so far has matched what I was taught word-for-word. Age of accountability and all.

Man, I guess I have hardcore fundies around here because they pretty much all say if a kid isn't baptized, they're going straight to hell. At best, I found a couple who said the souls would go to Purgatory (and I didn't point out to them that Dante made that up way after the Bible was written). One said that everyone is born with original sin, and that's the reason why we have to be baptized, so that the grace of God could come into the child's life and they can be washed pure again, and blah blah blah.

EDIT: More Christian stupidness.

Yoro, one of the reasons why people were freaking out over chipping (and even earlier than that, when barcodes became really popular and used) is because the fundies think (and indeed, this is a urban legend a lot of people believe) that all barcodes contain the number 666, which is supposed to be the number of the Antichrist. Never mind that historians believe they got the number wrong and it's more than likely 616, and they believe the early writers of Revelations were trying to refer to a Roman emperor via numerology. I forget which one it was now though.

*pinches the bridge of her nose* I really do know too much about this crap. Why can't my head keep important facts in it, like, oh, Calculus or programming?

Maximilia wrote:

Man, I guess I have hardcore fundies around here because they pretty much all say if a kid isn't baptized, they're going straight to hell. At best, I found a couple who said the souls would go to Purgatory (and I didn't point out to them that Dante made that up way after the Bible was written). One said that everyone is born with original sin, and that's the reason why we have to be baptized, so that the grace of God could come into the child's life and they can be washed pure again, and blah blah blah.

EDIT: More Christian stupidness.

Yoro, one of the reasons why people were freaking out over chipping (and even earlier than that, when barcodes became really popular and used) is because the fundies think (and indeed, this is a urban legend a lot of people believe) that all barcodes contain the number 666, which is supposed to be the number of the Antichrist. Never mind that historians believe they got the number wrong and it's more than likely 616, and they believe the early writers of Revelations were trying to refer to a Roman emperor via numerology. I forget which one it was now though.

*pinches the bridge of her nose* I really do know too much about this crap. Why can't my head keep important facts in it, like, oh, Calculus or programming?

Nero, according to the History channel. The seven-headed Beast thing is supposedly Rome, which sits on seven hills.

Lysander and KH wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

DON'T MAKE ME KNOCK YOUR HEADS TOGETHER IN THE FORM OF QUOTING GOOD OMENS TO EXCESS

Lady Anne wrote:

All of those things together could be purchased
for considerably less than $500. Anyone dumb enough to buy a kit like
that deserves to be ripped off.

But the high price is because it's a ~*SPIRIT GIFT*~ to the ~*MINISTRY*~, so it's being ripped off in ~*LOVE*~!

I tried my best to Google the kit up, but I can't find it. Considering Mom mentioned that the dude selling them was a famous televangelist who's already gone under like four times for tax fraud, I get the feeling the website may be down for, say, five to twenty.

People have been predicting that the world is coming to an end any day now throughout recorded history. They were probably predicting the same thing before recorded history, too.

As to the insistence of some end-times forecasters that all the signs are there for the world to come to an end, the signs have always been there. History has a bad habit of looping around and repeating itself.

I predict that the world will come to an end roughly 5 billion or so years from now. It will be heralded by the sun swelling up as it runs out of hydrogen. Everything will be incinerated. None of us will live to see it. In all likelihood, Homo sapiens will not survive to see it...we will either be extinct with no descendants, or we will have evolved into some other form. Either way, we don't need to worry about it.

[quote="Yorokobi"]It's been awhile since I've read Revelation, but the Mark of the Beast happens during the Tribulation, right? I remember people flipping out when dogs and cats started getting microchipped, because "This is just a step away from chipping humans--which will become the Mark!!!".

The Rapture-believing Christians shouldn't have anything to worry about when it comes to being "chipped"/marked (and I do wonder when the "mark" became the "chip"...at least in my community), because they'll be long gone because of the Rapture. So why do they make such a big deal over it? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Because they're batshit insane, and they've read the Left Behind series, I suspect.

Quote :

Also--Rabid Badger, were you raised in the Assemblies? That's where I was originally from, and everything you've said so far has matched what I was taught word-for-word. Age of accountability and all.

Ah, another Assemblies survivor! My dad was a minister most of his life; though he gave it up formally when I was around 12, after the church he'd pastored for 20 years decided it was his fault their kids were taking drugs and their daughters were having sex (and getting pregnant) before marriage. Never mind most of these kids were raised in the church, and my father never preached anything that didn't come directly from the Bible. I always admired his ability to forgive them for making him the scapegoat for their lack of parenting skills; I wasn't able to be nearly as forgiving, once I got old enough to figure out what'd happened.

Lysander wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that everyone will probably see the End coming. If there is no supernatural threat waiting in the wings, then the Earth will last a few more billion years in it's current inhabitable state, and it'll be hard to miss the sun ballooning into a red giant.

Short of a gamma ray burst, yeah.

Maximilia wrote:

One said that everyone is born with original sin, and that's the reason why we have to be baptized, so that the grace of God could come into the child's life and they can be washed pure again, and blah blah blah.

If that was so I wonder why Jesus said that we should all have a change of heart and become like little children, because otherwise we won't go to heaven.

Sounds to me like (at least little) children are on the safe side.



edited for stupid typo.

Rabid Badger wrote:

Quote :

Also--Rabid Badger, were you raised in the Assemblies? That's where I was originally from, and everything you've said so far has matched what I was taught word-for-word. Age of accountability and all.

Ah, another Assemblies survivor!

Me too, me too! My first two churches were Calvary Assemblies! We quit the first one because the pastor embezzled like a million bajillion dollars an' junk and the second one because the pastor's wife was a batshit crazy control freak! Then I went to a Baptist school where the pastor was a batshit CRAZIER control freak and I was eventually kicked out for being Catholic! And the Catholic church...

...is perfectly sane and accepting, with a very kind priest who truly believes in Jesus' love.

...yeah, I kinda have reasons for my religious biases. Mmyep.

Edit: dangling participle hurf durf

Delcat wrote:

Then I went to a Baptist school where the pastor was a batshit CRAZIER control freak and was eventually kicked out for being Catholic! And the Catholic church...

...is perfectly sane and accepting, with a very kind priest who truly believes in Jesus' love.

...yeah, I kinda have reasons for my religious biases. Mmyep.

That made my day. They seriously kicked out the pastor because he was Catholic? Was he a "secret Catholic" all that time?

I've recently been considering possibly going to a Catholic or Orthodox church (although I know my mother would disown me because she believes "Catholics aren't Christians! Rawr!" [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] She's read one too many Chick Tracks). They seem generally less insane than Protestants.

Hmm. Do the Catholics believe in the Rapture? Or is that a purely Protestant thing?

If you define the Rapture as the return of Christ then yes. If you define it as the return of Christ with masses of explosions, lightning, nuclear powered monkeys and a general apocalypse, it's not something I hear too many priests talking about.

Quote :

Or is that a purely Protestant thing?

It's my understanding that fire-and-brimstone Rapture crap is a purely Protestant thing.

I went to a Catholic university and had a nun teaching the basic religion course. (She didn't dress up or anything.) She gave us a really nice explication that the 'Apocalypse' is really a revolution of the soul and mind, and that the Kingdom of Heaven is all around us. Basically, that it's up to us to make heaven on Earth. Needless to say, I really liked that class.

Oh, and my dad is friends with a Catholic priest that's actually an atheist, (after studying religion all his life, he thinks its the only logical conclusion) but decides to stay because he really likes social work.

Now, these are professional theologians talking, and I'm not sure what the common Catholic thinks, but I've never heard a Catholic speak of the Rapture with a psychotic grin like most Protestants.

(Historically, I think the psycho elements of the Rapture were created sometime in 18th-19th century America, near the northeast parts. There was an important speech made by some sadist preacher dude that even made it into my English lit class, because he spoke of hell oh-so-vividly.)

EDIT: Oh, here we go, found the link. Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God. Jack Chick, meet your spiritual ancestor.

Ceres wrote:

Quote :

Or is that a purely Protestant thing?

It's my understanding that fire-and-brimstone Rapture crap is a purely Protestant thing.

I went to a Catholic university and had a nun teaching the basic religion course. (She didn't dress up or anything.) She gave us a really nice explication that the 'Apocalypse' is really a revolution of the soul and mind, and that the Kingdom of Heaven is all around us. Basically, that it's up to us to make heaven on Earth. Needless to say, I really liked that class.

Oh, and my dad is friends with a Catholic priest that's actually an atheist, (after studying religion all his life, he thinks its the only logical conclusion) but decides to stay because he really likes social work.

Now, these are professional theologians talking, and I'm not sure what the common Catholic thinks, but I've never heard a Catholic speak of the Rapture with a psychotic grin like most Protestants.

(Historically, I think the psycho elements of the Rapture were created sometime in 18th-19th century America, near the northeast parts. There was an important speech made by some sadist preacher dude that even made it into my English lit class, because he spoke of hell oh-so-vividly.)

EDIT: Oh, here we go, found the link. Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God. Jack Chick, meet your spiritual ancestor.

Oh Jonathan Edwards. Yes, he was quite the firey (no pun intended) preacher.

That priest that you mentioned really piques my interest, though. It would be fascinating in pick his brain. Does he stick mainly to social work, or does he still preach/run a church? It makes me wonder how many preachers actual believe the stuff they're spouting.

A Nazarene pastor at my college thoroughly believes that there is no rapture--I think he's a rarity among Protestant ministers, though. He says there's actual no Biblical proof of it. I'm really curious to ask him why he says that, but I have yet to work up the guts to talk to him (he always looks so angry and sulky).

Catholics are surprisingly sane despite what anyone thinks. Much as the preach against sin and all, they're pretty much over the whole "Crusades" thing. I guess Protestants are just having their moment in the Sun and will hopefully grow out of it.

And stop irritating everyone else.

Yorokobi wrote:

That made my day. They seriously kicked out the pastor because he was Catholic? Was he a "secret Catholic" all that time?

oh hurp a durp I totally left that participle dangling, sorry. I meant I was kicked out for being Catholic.

Lapin wrote:

Catholics are surprisingly sane despite what anyone thinks.

Have I mentioned lately how much I like you? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Delcat wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

Quote :

Also--Rabid Badger, were you raised in the Assemblies? That's where I was originally from, and everything you've said so far has matched what I was taught word-for-word. Age of accountability and all.

Ah, another Assemblies survivor!

Me too, me too! My first two churches were Calvary Assemblies! We quit the first one because the pastor embezzled like a million bajillion dollars an' junk and the second one because the pastor's wife was a batshit crazy control freak! Then I went to a Baptist school where the pastor was a batshit CRAZIER control freak and I was eventually kicked out for being Catholic! And the Catholic church...

...is perfectly sane and accepting, with a very kind priest who truly believes in Jesus' love.

...yeah, I kinda have reasons for my religious biases. Mmyep.

Edit: dangling participle hurf durf

We can start a social club for lapsed fundies!

Delcat wrote:

Yorokobi wrote:

That made my day. They seriously kicked out the pastor because he was Catholic? Was he a "secret Catholic" all that time?

oh hurp a durp I totally left that participle dangling, sorry. I meant I was kicked out for being Catholic.

Ohhh. Drat. That would've been an amazingly awesome story though. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Rabid Badger wrote:

We can start a social club for lapsed fundies!

I had no idea there were so many ex-Assemblies people on here. It makes my heart happy as I attempt to recover from the years of insanity. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]