British Riots Rage; Authorities At A Loss+

I hope British WGWers are alright...

London and Tottingham are experiencing an uncontrollable revolt as young, mainly working class rioters loot and set buildings on fire all over the place. There have been a lot of class and race struggles and tensions since the 1980s race riots and I'm sure longer before, but the trigger event as it's assumed to be right now is the shooting of suspected gangster and father of four Mark Duggan. The differing profiles of this man notwithstanding, his shooting was seen by the working class as wrongful, and now, well...





It's escalated beyond the point where the shooting can even be relevant. I'm not even going to try to keep up with the death toll seeing as the riots are still ongoing. Just... fuck...

Just a question from a non-brit: Since the whole newpaper corruption debacle, which publications are British Fox News Shit and which are Legit? I've been curious about this for a while, but I'm not sure how to go about judging sources.

Jesus. wrote:

The differing profiles of this man notwithstanding, his shooting was seen by the working class as wrongful, and now, well...

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I'm not even going to try to keep up with the death toll seeing as the riots are still ongoing

You don't have to. There isn't one (apart from the guy who got shot). People have been injured but as far as I can tell nobody has died.

Sakurelf wrote:

Just a question from a non-brit: Since the whole newpaper corruption debacle, which publications are British Fox News Shit and which are Legit? I've been curious about this for a while, but I'm not sure how to go about judging sources.

The Guardian is the paper that worked to expose the phone hacking scandal (and did so for almost a decade), but is not without it's problems. It's prolly the only proudly lefty (mainstream) paper in the country, followed by the Independent. The Times is more right-leaning, and a Murdoch creation, but still keeps a little (not much, but a little) credibility, The ToryTelegraph is a little more obviously on the right, then you have the Mirror, Sun, Mail and Express in, roughly descending order of shittiness.

There's also the Daily Star, but that usually ins't considered a 'proper' newspaper. The Star is more true to the American understanding of a Tabloid paper, however, given it's occasional promoting of the EDL it does attract a bit of attention every now and again.

But I'm a lefty BBC supporter myself, so what do I know?

The so called 'Trigger Event' was just an excuse - this trouble has been boiling up for ages. People are organising themselves on Facebooks. People who don't know or give one shit about Mark Duggan and just want to loot. This isn't even about religion - it's scum, is what they are. Using an excuse. Taking advantage.

And it's coming to Birmingham and Nottingham.

I live 45 minutes south from Nottingham. And Birmingham is about an hour to the west.

Fortunately, because it happens in Nottingham, the police were waiting for them. They started in the outside districts and moved their way in to the shops, so they'd drawn attention to themselves.

Birmingham Riots

Birmingham's organised - shops have been looted and somebody was killed. This has to stop. It has to BE stopped.

Police are upping from 6,000 to 16,000 in London. And I hope that rain comes real soon - rain puts people off this sort of thing.

Also... PEOPLE ARE DYING. It makes me really angry. That casual, petty gangs will just kick in for a laugh. And then somebody dies.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

The so called 'Trigger Event' was just an excuse - this trouble has been boiling up for ages. People are organising themselves on Facebooks. People who don't know or give one shit about Mark Duggan and just want to loot. This isn't even about religion - it's scum, is what they are. Using an excuse. Taking advantage.

Kind of like the assholes who burned down stores and smashed Reginald Denny's face in with a brick during the LA riots in '92. They claimed it was retribution for the beating of Rodney King, but they couldn't give a rat's ass about King...they just wanted to maim and destroy.

Exactly, Chris. All of Duggan's family and friends have condemned the riots. They've been organised by gangs to loot stores, set on fire historical landmarks, stuff like that. With people just walking into stores and lifting stuff. That's not retribution. That's sheer wanton destruction.

Apparently they're organising themselves over the Internet. Well I say, let's denounce them over the Internet. Far and wide.

Nobody supports these rioters. Of course, they don't care about support, they just want to destroy things.

On the plus side, nobody in Parliment is going to be announcing cutbacks to the police for a while...

How are you doing yourself, incidentally?

Nothing's happened here in my village, but we're sitting tight, hoping that the problems in Nottingham can be culled quickly. It's all a 'yet' thing.

Jesus. wrote:

I hope British WGWers are alright...

I'm fine, at least, though things are getting quite up-close here. I regularly spend time in a part of the city where a degree of rioting happened, and was there a couple hours before it began.

Still, I'm absolutely not surprised this is happening. If you look at how the government has treated working class areas in England over the last 30 years, how disenfranchised today's youth is due to a fucked up economy/lack of jobs/cuts on spending for so many community activities and services and how the wealth gap between the top 10% and bottom 50% has exploded, this outcome is fucking obvious. Hell, Nick Clegg hinted that it will happen last year.

I'm fucking sick of watching the news report on this, and watch them introduce a bunch of "experts" who are totally out of touch with today's working class proceed to whine and bleat and ask why such "criminality and thuggery" has invaded our decent country full of decent people. I'm sick of hearing about Are Brave Coppers!! when it is them who incited the first riots by beating up a 16 year old girl in front of then-peaceful protestors, and keep lying about their corruption at the top levels. I'm sick of seeing soundbytes of people giving constructive reasons as to why the riots are happening, only for them to be dismissed by stupid reporters saying "No, i-i-it's criminality and thuggery!!" and then devoting the next half-hour to "WHY ARE PEOPLE RIOTING? ". I'm sick of disgusting facebook/youtube/twitter messages by dickheads who claim to be "decent honest people" yet think sending the army out to shoot protestors is totally fine.

WD40 wrote:

But I'm a lefty BBC supporter myself, so what do I know?

What do you know? Fuck all, if that's all you've been watching. The second incident of civil unrest under the latest Tory government and the second time the BBC have failed to impartially report and investigate. No, let's just scream about yobs and hooligans! Sensationalist news!

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

it's scum, is what they are. Using an excuse. Taking advantage.

Fuck off Harley you revolting shit. Just fuck off.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

On the plus side, nobody in Parliment is going to be announcing cutbacks to the police for a while...

Pfhfahahaha, you're kidding, right? Our government doesn't give a shit about the police. They don't give a shit about you or I or anybody else. David Cameron, George Osbourne and B-b-bumbling Boris Johnson had to all be dragged home from their cosy "hard earned" holidays to deal with the mess they're just going to blame Labour with and do nothing about at the end any way. You dumb shit.

Just Chipper wrote:

Still, I'm absolutely not surprised this is happening. If you look at how the government has treated working class areas in England over the last 30 years, how disenfranchised today's youth is due to a fucked up economy/lack of jobs/cuts on spending for so many community activities and services and how the wealth gap between the top 10% and bottom 50% has exploded, this outcome is fucking obvious. Hell, Nick Clegg hinted that it will happen last year.

Frankly I am surprised there are not more riots on this side of the water. But then I suppose if there is anything the upper class is good for 'round here it is keeping the lower classes confused as to who they should be mad at.

Did you switch your fucking BRAIN off, Chipper? The police weren't 'asking for' the riots. We hardly know a goddamn thing about Mark Duggan's death, but on the whole it's pretty apparent his friends and family weren't thinking

Communication is currently going right down the toilet. In fact that's been part of the problem from the beginning.

Oh yeah... and that report is three days old. Very 'up to date', Chipper.

What I think? I think, if you don't plan to cause trouble in those areas, STAY INSIDE. You won't get kicked in by thugs or mistaken for troublemakers by cops then.

It's a weird mix, you have the people who are out and about because the camels back is well and truly broken and just want to get some attention for the way the government is treating them.
Then you have the morons who are there just to cause trouble and nothing more.

If you want public sympathy for your actions, go and attack the police stations or political party headquarters, don't attack houses and small shops and leave people homeless, don't burn down building that have stood for well over 80 years. As genuine a complaint these people have this is just gonna be counter-productive.

It's looting out of pure greed, not anger.

Yes, I'm angry at the police for not keeping it under control. But I'm much more angry at the looters looting for the sake of looting.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Did you switch your fucking BRAIN off, Chipper? The police weren't 'asking for' the riots.

The police have an extensive history of inciting violent behaviour from protestors - both violent and peaceful. I'm not going to waste my time googling shit for you, but look up any riots to do with Maggie Thatcher throughout the 80's/early 90's and look up police activities. Also, a thread from these very forums discussing British police provoking violent behaviour the last time the public dared protest any sort of issue.

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We hardly know a goddamn thing about Mark Duggan's death

What we do know however is that it's pretty likely that the police lied about Mark Duggan opening fire on an officer. In case you're too lazy to click the link, it says that the bullet that hit a police man's radio was a police-issue round. Now either Duggan is a cop, or the Met are telling porkies. Just like how they did regarding Ian Tomlinson, the Hillsborough disaster, Jean Charles de Mendes and countless others. All incidents where gross police misconduct either created or heightened a situation yet was brushed under the carpet to protect their reputation. Do some fucking research.

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Oh yeah... and that report is three days old. Very 'up to date', Chipper.

What report?

Somath Cegem wrote:

If you want public sympathy for your actions, go and attack the police stations or political party headquarters, don't attack houses and small shops and leave people homeless, don't burn down building that have stood for well over 80 years. As genuine a complaint these people have this is just gonna be counter-productive.

Of course! These poorly educated and angry people should approach their rioting in an educated, calm manner! It's almost like these people haven't got an incredibly low standard of education, living and services to provide for them! Why are they rioting again? I forget.

Dumb shit wrote:

I think, if you don't plan to cause trouble in those areas, STAY INSIDE. You won't get kicked in by thugs or mistaken for troublemakers by cops then.

Of course, hide! Hope that everything just blows over and that your precious livelihoods aren't put at risk, people! We don't deserve any of this, after all; we just rolled along with our opportunities and jobs and positive circumstances and who are those dirty unwashed peasent underclass to think we should be burdened because of that? Oh, please don't hit me, Mr. Police Officer - look! I'm groveling away in my home! I've heard that if you push your fingers in your ears and scream "YOBBOS!!" loud enough those animalistic sub-human underclass might cease existing! Maybe if we're lucky the army will roll into town and give those roustabouts a good what-for! Thank God I'm a white middle-class person living in the United Kingdom. Empathy? What rot are you rabbiting on about now, dear? Can't you see I'm trying to listen to the Archers!?

I'd love to see your point of view, Chipper, but I can't get my head that far up my ass. I have no job, nor does anybody in this house. Oh yeah, I'm a snobby middle-class ignoramus, because I think it's a damn good night to stay inside? Because maybe I think middle-class people are the only ones getting hit? Hell no - most of the houses victimised are on a similar financial level to the louts victimising them.

You know, with messages like 'Let's all go looting tonight!' flying around on the phones?

That's right, there's no evidence to suggest Mark Duggan was any threat. People are still trying to work that one out. But he's not the problem with these looters. The problem with them is that they are greedy, opportunistic assholes.

Sure, I'm angry at the police for not being able to contain this mess. And I'm always pissed off at politicians. But you know who I'm really angry at? The greedy, opportunistic little copycat punkass twats who are smashing shop windows and looting them. And others who are smashing up cars and houses for the joy of it. For every person who gets angry at the police right now, that's exactly what these thugs want.

Helpless or not, I think I'd rather get mad at the definite cause, rather than the solution.

Just Chipper wrote:

Of course! These poorly educated and angry people should approach their rioting in an educated, calm manner! It's almost like these people haven't got an incredibly low standard of education, living and services to provide for them! Why are they rioting again? I forget.

This seems to be running off of the assumption that rioting is legitimate behavior. Somath seems to be coming from the angle that if you're pissed off enough to be violent over something, your violence ought to be directed at the source of your anger, instead of just random people who haven't done shit to you. Which, I gotta say, is completely reasonable.

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Just Chipper wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

If you want public sympathy for your actions, go and attack the police stations or political party headquarters, don't attack houses and small shops and leave people homeless, don't burn down building that have stood for well over 80 years. As genuine a complaint these people have this is just gonna be counter-productive.

Of course! These poorly educated and angry people should approach their rioting in an educated, calm manner! It's almost like these people haven't got an incredibly low standard of education, living and services to provide for them! Why are they rioting again? I forget.

Oi! All I was doing was pointing out that this is possibly going to generate a mountain of backlash, and considering how organised these riots seem to be with targets being picked out before hand I'm pretty sure these people can figure out "don't piss off your would be allies"

These people aren't angry. They're greedy. That's why they're attacking shops and businesses, rather than the police or government buildings.

It would make more sense if they had a cause besides just looting, but they don't. It still wouldn't be right, but at least it would make more sense.

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

I'd love to see your point of view, Chipper, but I can't get my head that far up my ass. I have no job, nor does anybody in this house. Oh yeah, I'm a snobby middle-class ignoramus, because I think it's a damn good night to stay inside?

You sure as hell speak with the same rhetoric as they all do.

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You know, with messages like 'Let's all go looting tonight!' flying around on the phones?

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The problem with them is that they aregreedy, opportunistic assholes.

God forbid a group of people who have been exploited, ignored and mistreated for decades finally become opportunistic! They should handle their poverty and ignorance in a dignified matter like us decent people! Instead of analyzing the causes as to why they are being this way, we should focus entirely on the symptoms and demonise them in the process!

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Sure, I'm angry at the police for not being able to contain this mess.

Are you hoping they put the hoses and firearms to use? I bet you're waiting for the blood, just like in your shitty hedgehog porn fics, to shlick along to tonight.

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And I'm always pissed off at politicians. But you know who I'm really angry at? The greedy, opportunistic little copycat punkass twats who are smashing shop windows and looting them. And others who are smashing up cars and houses for the joy of it.

"Sure I'm angry at the people who have allowed bankers to make millions from breaking the economy, and who decided to burden the lowest rung of Britain more than any other group of people with said bankers' mistakes, but the victims of their bullshit are much more worthy of my scorn and hatred!"

Just get the fuck out.

Somath Cegem wrote:

All I was doing was pointing out that this is possibly going to generate a mountain of backlash

It was either this or they protest peacefully and get ignored. Government over the last 30 years have failed these people so much that they don't give a shit about what anybody thinks because there's nothing for them to live for.

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considering how organised these riots seem to be with targets being picked out before hand I'm pretty sure these people can figure out "don't piss off your would be allies"

Yes, this is essentially what desenfranchisement is, and these riots are what happens if it isn't treated for several decades. They don't care about what you think because nobody cares about what they think.

e, The Guardian confirm that Mark Duggan did not shoot police.

Just Chipper wrote:

Somath Cegem wrote:

All I was doing was pointing out that this is possibly going to generate a mountain of backlash

It was either this or they protest peacefully and get ignored. Government over the last 30 years have failed these people so much that they don't give a shit about what anybody thinks because there's nothing for them to live for.

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considering how organised these riots seem to be with targets being picked out before hand I'm pretty sure these people can figure out "don't piss off your would be allies"

Yes, this is essentially what disenfranchisement is, and these riots are what happens if it isn't treated for several decades. They don't care about what you think because nobody don't care about what they think.

So basically what you are saying is that these people just don't give a shit about anything and just want to make a mess as revenge against the world, even if the people they are attacking are only guilty of just trying to keep there own head above water and working each day to do so.

And this is okay how? People are wrong for wanting this to stop why?

Me? Spell like an educated person? Lord forbid that a person without a regular income could do that! Lord forbid I side with the police on this one despite being jobless and on support!

If I'm really working class, I should be siding with you and yodelling on about how it's all the police's fault. You know, because they're not pulling out the magic wands and magically zapping some self-respect and decency into the thugs they're up against.

You know, Chipper, I don't give a fuck that you're a Liverpudlian. I know Liverpool's had problems with civilians versus police. But since when did I say anything about breaking out the rubber bullets or water cannons? Since when did I mention them?

Don't give these scum in London and Birmingham and Nottingham an excuse. What's been boiling up for years is not a legitimate reason to smash up and burn your own goddamn high street.

They're not doing it out of a 'cause'.

There's serious problems going down, but you know what? I'm gonna blame the assholes smashing windows with baseball bats, rather than say 'It's society's fault'. Sure, society has to do with it. The problems of thirty years of segregations are a harsh mistress. But...

All this looting on high streets has nothing to do with people's greviances with the government. It's pure greed.

I would imagine they are thinking that is peaceful protest is not working than putting the fear into the police is the best plan B they have. Regardless of public opinion, it is possible the police will think more careful about heir decisions if there is the threat of a massive riot when they fuck up.

Another thing to keep in mind; people who are IN NO WAY ASSOCIATED with a cause will take a riot as an opportunity to loot. The actual protestors could all be perfect angels, the fact that the police are distracted is enough for trouble to spring up.

IDK about this riot in particular, but something like that happened in Seattle just recently when that cop who killed that deaf guy for carving-while-native-american was let go with barely a slap on the wrist. He was not even banned from buying and owning firearms, which to me was a no-brainer. The native community held a bunch of peaceful demonstrations specifically asking the various anarchist, socialist, and other sympathetic and demonstrative political groups to behave themselves if they wanted to come. These groups did so, but held their own marches and such which were louder but reasonably organized. But when the guy's non-punishment went out they all were in a disorganized rush to do something and opportunistic types took advantage of the hubbub to loot and stuff. The people who actually cared about the cause were just angry and wanted the police to understand that, the criminal activity was a side-effect.

You're insulting Mark Duggan's family, Reep. They totally denounce this violence.

People who start peaceful protests don't suddenly decide "Hey, nobody's listening; time to smash a window". No, there are people who watch for these protests and marches, and join them for no reason other than to be in a crowd when they start smashing things up.

If they were angry at the police, ie over a cause - Mark Duggan or otherwise - they'd confront the police. Instead, when the police show they run from the shops they're smashing up like the little cowards they are.

Some people who had 'good reputations' were arrested for looting, too.