Deadliest Warrior

About a year ago, I was sitting at home watching TV, when I saw a commercial for SPIKE TV's premiere episode of "Deadliest Warrior". Immediately, I wrote down the date and time of the premiere, because the show has a pretty kick-ass premise.

Basically, the entire idea of the show is to ponder questions like, "who would win in a fight, a ninja or a pirate?" The kind of arguments very drunk geeks get into.

So I watched the premiere, and I've kept watching on an on and off basis for almost two seasons now. It's a guilty pleasure, I watch the show because I honestly enjoy watching bleeding gel torsos get carved up real good by some guy with a tomahawk.

That doesn't stop me from watching the show and thinking to myself "But that's STUPID!" nearly every time they do a test.

You see, the main problem with this show's premise is that these questions are really hard to answer (next to impossible). It's not like you can go back in time, pluck a Spartan from the battlefield, than jump to another point in time, grab a Viking, and than bring them back to the present to duke it out in a caged-in ring. The questions they are asking just can't be answered. So I was interested in seeing how they would pull it off. I knew the show would be flawed... but....

They act like they can. They act like everything they're doing on this show is (wait for it) SCIENCE! When all they're doing is just running off these incredibly flawed experiments that don't even come close to being scientific. The greatest example of this would be the hosts, who (for the most part) seem to have absolutely zero credentials, and really don't seem to do anything but provide...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

... reaction shots and to give generally fucktarded comments the entire time. Let me break them down bit by bit...

Max Geiger: This guy goes first because I assume he's supposed to be the leader or something. According to "Deadliest Warrior" he's a "computer programmer". According to Wikipedia he's the "simulations programmer", which seems more accurate, considering that I haven't seen him doing much computer programming on the show. All he seems to do is just punch numbers into this mysterious computer simulation that supposedly crunches all the "data" (I use the term loosely) they collect on the show to decide the winner. They never even say how the computer decides the winner. The most we get out of Geiger is that "the computer will run the simulation through a thousand battles and whoever wins the most is the deadliest warrior". Which really doesn't tell us much, except that the computer reaches its decision by doing a thousand something. For all we know, Geiger could just be flipping a digital coin a thousand times. Heads Ninja wins, tails Spartan wins.

So because Geiger never actually explains how the program works, I assume he doesn't even know how the damn thing works. He just presses the keys and watches what happens.

It also says on Wikipedia that Geiger is the creator of the show. Which probably answers my question of "why is he even on the show?"

It's also incredibly fun to say his name in the narrator's (Drew Skye) voice. Which might also be why he's on the show.

Dr. Armand Dorian: According to Wikipedia, this guys name is Armand Dorian, which was weird for me, because the way they pronounce it in the show, it sounds like his name is Armando Dorian. Anyway, I put this guy second because his credentials seem like the least amount of bullshit. They say he's a former trauma doctor (or some shit), and for some dumb reason, I believe them. Because Dr. Dorian (like Geiger) doesn't really do anything on the show that would make you believe his credentials. His job is to make the most fucktarded comments on the show. These consist of him walking up to a gel torso that just had its fucking head torn off in one swift blow, carefully investigating the bloody stump, than announcing "Yep, this would kill you."

I wasn't the only person in the room who shouted "NO SHIT!" the first time he did this.

But despite this, I like Dorian. Unlike the other two hosts, he's not on the entire show. He only appears when they need to ask him if an arrow to the throat would kill you. After making his decidedly stupid announcement of "he's dead", he than disappears. Kind of like the butler from Mr. Deeds.

This elusive behavior leads me to believe that he really doesn't want to be on the show, but Max Geiger is holding his family hostage and forcing him to be a part of this. If only because I could totally picture Geiger doing something like that.

Geoff Desmoulin: I have no clue why he's even there. Geiger owns the show and talks about numbers and sciency things, Dorian wears a lab coat, but Geoff doesn't really seem to have any purpose whatsoever. In a couple episodes he acts as a human test dummy! But that's about the most useful thing I've seen him do. On the show they say he's a "biomedical scientist". Bullshit I say.

moar ranting to come...

NO.

Deadliest Warrior is best show on TV and you should be ashamed of yourself for dragging it in here.

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Dr. Armand Dorian: ... His job is to make the most
fucktarded comments on the show. These consist of him walking up to a
gel torso that just had its fucking head torn off in one swift blow,
carefully investigating the bloody stump, than announcing "Yep, this
would kill you."

HURF DURF GETTING A SPEAR IN THE FACE WILL KILL YOU HURRRRRRRR

Except he actually DOES tell you WHY it will kill you (severing the spinal cord, for instance), or how long you'd have live before you bleed out or whatever. Now if it really were just him saying "DURRRRR I THINK HE'S DEAD," Then I'd agree with you. But since it isn't.... yeah.

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Geoff Desmoulin: I have no clue why he's even there. Geiger owns the show and talks about numbers and sciency things,
Dorian wears a lab coat, but Geoff doesn't really seem to have any
purpose whatsoever. In a couple episodes he acts as a human test dummy!
But that's about the most useful thing I've seen him do. On the show
they say he's a "biomedical scientist". Bullshit I say.

*Gasp* How DARE they bring in someone else to provide a second opinion and/or provide debate! WHY WON'T THEY JUST TELL YOU LOL KNIFE WINS

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Max Geiger: This guy goes first because I assume he's
supposed to be the leader or something. According to "Deadliest
Warrior" he's a "computer programmer". According to Wikipedia he's the
"simulations programmer", which seems more accurate, considering that I
haven't seen him doing much computer programming on the show. All he
seems to do is just punch numbers into this mysterious computer
simulation that supposedly crunches all the "data" (I use the term
loosely) they collect on the show to decide the winner. They never even
say how the computer decides the winner. The most we get out of Geiger
is that "the computer will run the simulation through a thousand
battles and whoever wins the most is the deadliest warrior". Which
really doesn't tell us much, except that the computer reaches its
decision by doing a thousand something. For all we know, Geiger could
just be flipping a digital coin a thousand times. Heads Ninja wins,
tails Spartan wins.

See, being in the video production biz myself, I can tell you that If Geiger even HINTED that he was going to provide an in-depth, meticulously detailed explanation on how the program works to the "Panel" during the pitch, they'd either laugh at him, or throw his ass out of the building. Likely both in either order. The idea behind the show is two guys fighting to the death. Not a lecture in nerdcore computer science.

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They act like everything they're doing on this show is (wait for it) SCIENCE! When all they're doing is just running off these incredibly flawed experiments that don't even come close to being scientific.

Would you care to elaborate? Since, as you said, you really can't go pluck a ninja and a viking from the past and put them in a cage together. And somehow, I suspect law enforcement would frown upon dressing two guys up as said ninja and viking and have them actually fighting it out to the death. What they're doing is the next best (legal) thing.

But but, they're not taking it seriously! And Green Berets lost! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Deadliest Warrior isn't that bad in theory. (If we're going to rant about terrible pseudoscience, I'm just gonna sit here and wait for someone to nitpick MythBusters, which is nonetheless also an awesome show).

The problem is that their criteria for who wins is based on which weapons impress the nerds the most. A grossly impractical weapon like a ballistic knife wins over the brute practicality of an entrenching tool simply because HOLY SHIT IT'S A KNIFE THAT SHOOTS ITS BLADE HOW AWESOME IS THAT!?

The show is more like creating video game stats for historically-based characters based on what weapons they might wield, nothing more. So while it's fun, it's really not something to be taken seriously since it fails to take many other data into account. For example, the Mafia vs. Yakuza episode. Comparing a Walther P38 to a shotgun is silly. Of course the shotgun's going to win, it's immensely powerful in comparison. But which is a criminal more likely to be carrying around in public? It's probably going to be the easier one to conceal.

It's silly fun, nothing more.

I watch this show faithfully every week just to see how laughably inaccurate it is. Most of the experts can get pretty cranky but I was impressed with how the Spetsnaz experts handled themselves, Sonny in particular.

I agree with Penguin, it's silly fun, nothing more. Now if you want to see people taking it too seriously, check out the IMDB forums.

Aggie wrote:

I watch this show faithfully every week just to see how laughably inaccurate it is. Most of the experts can get pretty cranky but I was impressed with how the Spetsnaz experts handled themselves, Sonny in particular.

The Spetsnaz were awesome and I want to keep one as a pet.

I may also want to mention that some of the "experts" they brought in had rather questionable credentials too. If I remember correctly, on the first episode they had an MMA fighter come in to be an expert on gladiators. Because being an MMA fighter makes you an expert on gladiators.

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*Gasp* How DARE they bring in someone else to provide a second opinion and/or provide debate! WHY WON'T THEY JUST TELL YOU LOL KNIFE WINS

But from what's on the show, they never really debate. Usually they all agree (usually on whichever knife was the biggest), or one of them disagrees with the other two, but the other two win by majority rule.

Maybe they debate this whole thing in-depth behind the scenes, I dunno. But than, they've stated that winning the "edge" in a weapons test has no effect on who wins. So they probably don't.

Which brings me to another nitpick: it always bothers me that every episode, each fighter wins the edge an equal amount of times. I think the only time the edge was given out unevenly was when the shaolin monk fought the maori warrior.

I can't seem to tell whether the fighters weapons always seem to naturally pan out like that, or whether the show is fixed so that it pans out like that.

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Would you care to elaborate? Since, as you said, you really can't go pluck a ninja and a viking from the past and put them in a cage together. And somehow, I suspect law enforcement would frown upon dressing two guys up as said ninja and viking and have them actually fighting it out to the death. What they're doing is the next best (legal) thing.

I know they're trying to do the best they can. And I do enjoy watching the show (pseudo-science and all), but as I said, it's a guilty pleasure.

I knew from the start that making a show like this would require gads of bothersome faux-science.

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But but, they're not taking it seriously!

I don't know about that. Have you seen how some of the experts get on that show? Particularly Team Apache, Team Samurai, and Team Ninja. Those guys got pretty pissy.

One of my favorite (see also: most hilariously ridiculous) parts of the show is how the fighters meet each other in the beginning. Someone like the celt will just be walking through the forest, just bopping along, enjoying a nice stroll (armed to the teeth), when all of a sudden, a zande warrior comes running out, growling, beating his chest, doing this whole professional wrestler act, while the celt just looks at him like "What the fuck are you doing?" Than they start fighting, just out of the blue.

Penguin wrote:

Deadliest Warrior isn't that bad in theory. (If we're going to rant about terrible pseudoscience, I'm just gonna sit here and wait for someone to nitpick MythBusters, which is nonetheless also an awesome show).

As requested...

Didn't they rule that the 'myth' of being sucked down with a ship due to the whirlpool that was created was 'busted'? Baloney!

*hands back the topic now*

Also, Mr. Doobie, they don't always hand out equal edges to the opponents; there were a couple episodes where the weapons were grossly outmatched. I think there was one episode where one side only got the edge once. I'm trying to remember which one it was, though. Rajput vs Centurion maybe?

Aggie wrote:

Also, Mr. Doobie, they don't always hand out equal edges to the opponents; there were a couple episodes where the weapons were grossly outmatched. I think there was one episode where one side only got the edge once. I'm trying to remember which one it was, though. Rajput vs Centurion maybe?

No, Rajput and Centurion had equal edges. The ones that I've seen where equal edges weren't doled out were the "Shaolin Monk" episode and "Vlad the Impaler vs. Sun Tzu".

Penguin wrote:

A grossly impractical weapon like a ballistic knife wins over the brute practicality of an entrenching tool simply because HOLY SHIT IT'S A KNIFE THAT SHOOTS ITS BLADE HOW AWESOME IS THAT!?

Why won't they issue a ballistic knife to me? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I don't blame you, man. Look at how sleek those motherfuckers look.

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The ballistic knife being the most silent way to take someone out at a distance and it not being the only knife you can carry, not withstanding, how is it possible for Spetznaz to consider any weapon impractical?

Mr.Doobie wrote:

Aggie wrote:

No, Rajput and Centurion had equal edges. The ones that I've seen where equal edges weren't doled out were the "Shaolin Monk" episode and "Vlad the Impaler vs. Sun Tzu".

....What? Why?

Dude was basically a bad-tempered medieval ruler who had people impaled at the drop of a hat. And it was a pretty goofy hat, at that.

...

I'm going to download that episode now.

Psy-4 wrote:

The ballistic knife being the most silent way to take someone out at a distance

If you can manage to land the Hollywood Instantly Fatal Knife Hit, then maybe. I'd rather have a suppressed .45. Just as quiet, you can actually aim the damn thing with sights, and you have more than one shot.

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and it not being the only knife you can carry, not withstanding,

If you're bringing multiple knives to a gunfight, you're probably doing it wrong.

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how is it possible for Spetznaz to consider any weapon impractical?

Well, that's just how they roll. They are masters of the backflipping hatchet attack, after all.

Penguin wrote:

I'd rather have a suppressed .45.

Not an entrenchment tool?

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Psy-4 wrote:

Penguin wrote:

I'd rather have a suppressed .45.

Not an entrenchment tool?

Well, yeah. It's easier to take someone down at range by shooting them in the head than throwing an e-tool at them. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Incidentally, my brother hated that episode having worked with SF guys. Said he never saw them screwing around with e-tools and almost none bothered with a standard-issue M9. Anecdotal, sure, but having heard similar things elsewhere, I'm inclined to believe that the M9 was picked over a 1911 so they could have more clear differences in weapons, having already decided that the M4 and AK-74 were evenly matched. (Aside from caliber wank, an 8-shot Makarov and an 8-shot M1911 aren't really different enough either). Same goes for the e-tool, had to bring something off-the-wall but real world to the table.

Penguin wrote:

Anecdotal, sure, but having heard similar things elsewhere, I'm inclined to believe that the M9 was picked over a 1911 so they could have more clear differences in weapons, having already decided that the M4 and AK-74 were evenly matched.

M9 was technically supposed to win since it had the more powerful cartridge and double the magazine size.

Penguin wrote:

Same goes for the e-tool, had to bring something off-the-wall but real world to the table.

Trouble with the standardization of army equipment. It all just devolves into main rifle wank, because everything else is pretty much the same.

I hear the U.S. army is getting a Saiga of their own (AA-12, I think).

Psy-4 wrote:

M9 was technically supposed to win since it had the more powerful cartridge and double the magazine size.

Yup. With the way they set up the match, the magazine advantage was irrelevant since all targets could be shot before either had to reload, and 9x19's power advantage over 9x18 is fairly marginal, so it's hardly worth mentioning.

So basically, it was just an abbreviated speed shooting competition, something that gave the advantage to the Makarov and its fancy holster. I think the Green Beret was rushing to beat the Spetsnaz guy's time, which was why he shot poorly in comparison. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

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Trouble with the standardization of army equipment. It all just devolves into main rifle wank, because everything else is pretty much the same.

The funny thing here is that Special Forces like the Green Berets usually aren't so heavily limited to the standard issue gear.

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I hear the U.S. army is getting a Saiga of their own (AA-12, I think).

I think the AA-12's going to be one of those Future Weapons "As Seen In Modern Warfare 2" things that never really materializes as anything beyond a trial phase curiosity. Otherwise, the USAS-12 and/or SPAS-15 would've been adopted a long time ago. If you go picking a fight with an 8-shot pump action or sem-auto shotgun that you can't fight your way out of with your buddies backing you up, a faster reload and full-auto capability probably aren't going to help you much.

Marginal improvements like that is why the Army is still dragging its heels on finding something to replace the M4*, and why SOCOM finally rejected the SCAR-L.

*I'm just glad they rejected the XM8. What a POS.

Penguin wrote:

So basically, it was just an abbreviated speed shooting competition, something that gave the advantage to the Makarov and its fancy holster. I think the Green Beret was rushing to beat the Spetsnaz guy's time, which was why he shot poorly in comparison. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Yeah, I noticed that with firearms they tend to test personal skill, since a kill is usually assured. But with melee(and perhaps explosives) they just test how damaging it is.

Also, don't hate on the holster. You know you want one.

Penguin wrote:

Marginal improvements like that is why the Army is still dragging its heels on finding something to replace the M4*, and why SOCOM finally rejected the SCAR-L.

*I'm just glad they rejected the XM8. What a POS.

I hear HK417 is where it's at.

I love this show the same way I love "Attack of the Crab Monsters".

It'd be a lot better if they had mechanical arms to do the hacking/slashing and mechanized shooting in place to test accuracy/effectiveness of the weapons, but I'm there for the sheer cheese of it.

And to derive RPG write-ups/find future jump off points to flummox my players.

Because I'm mean (and they believe the show a little too much).

so this show is basically stardestroyer.net only with history nerds

Cyberwulf wrote:

so this show is basically stardestroyer.net only with history nerds

Nah, not enough Atheism.

If anything, it's Mythbusters + 300.

Psy-4 wrote:

Yeah, I noticed that with firearms they tend to test personal skill, since a kill is usually assured. But with melee(and perhaps explosives) they just test how damaging it is.

Well, for Mafia vs. Yakuza they did have the reps from each side spray targets with the Tommy Gun and Sten, and for some reason did a power comparison between the shotgun and Walther P38.

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Also, don't hate on the holster. You know you want one.

It's nifty, I'll give it that much. But really, if you're carrying a weapon that can be carried cocked and locked, like an M1911, all you have to do is pull it upward and aim, flicking the safety off in the process. It's actually faster and less jarring (you can see how far the Spetsnaz guy's motion carries his upper torso when he shoves the Makarov out of its holster, for example).

Psy-4 wrote:

I hear HK417 is where it's at.

Nah, the SCAR-H is still going strong. Really, I'd be surprised if any US force picked up any HK weapon in any official capacity, and any role that the 417 might be considered for is more strongly contended for by other platforms.

On a slightly related note, the 416 is a joke. Oh boy, the same shitty performance 5.56 delivers out of an M4's 14.5" barrel, only since it's no longer direct impingement and has the HK logo on it, it's somehow better.

But hey, at least the USP-CT is pretty cool. Too bad it's threaded backwards. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Cyberwulf wrote:

so this show is basically stardestroyer.net only with history nerds

Nah, because they actually test real weapons and have some real-world data to work with, not reviewing movies for which explosion gave them the biggest boner.

Penguin wrote:

Well, for Mafia vs. Yakuza they did have the reps from each side spray targets with the Tommy Gun and Sten, and for some reason did a power comparison between the shotgun and Walther P38.

I'm guessing it's a primary-secondary weapon breakdown, and that you don't pull out a secondary until you're out of primary or when primary is not appropriate(like very close range).

Plus, the mafias aren't on the open field, they are urban, and usually point blank, so it's hard to miss and stopping power is what counts.

When your primary's a Thompson, very close range is still highly appropriate. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Penguin wrote:

Nah, because they actually test real weapons and have some real-world data to work with, not reviewing movies for which explosion gave them the biggest boner.

It helps having real-world weapons to test. Kinda hard to test a Phaser...

God those weapons are weird.

Yup. On a slightly related note, since using tech data is a major part of my job, I fucking hate it when Stardestroyer.net morons refer to their sci-fi spec fluff as "tech data." Neckbeard please, get back to me when you use your tech data to isolate a malfunction on an X-wing and replace the broken part.

Penguin wrote:

Yup. On a slightly related note, since using tech data is a major part of my job, I fucking hate it when Stardestroyer.net morons refer to their sci-fi spec fluff as "tech data." Neckbeard please, get back to me when you use your tech data to isolate a malfunction on an X-wing and replace the broken part.

Which is kinda funny considering they (including the engineer-founder) think Deadliest Warrior is pretty damn ridiculous.

To quote one poster:

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The mock battles at the end are idiotic, because they don't really represent what they're supposed to be doing in the tests, which is when it comes down to it just talking about weapons lethality and armor effectiveness (and in dubious ways at that). That said, the mock fights at the end do have great kitsch value.

But I think I forgot to ask last time (lost in the crowd), but what would your solution be for gathering information for a comparison between two fictional...well, anything that effects the(ir) physical universe?