12 shot dead at biggest US military base in the world

T.S.Orr wrote:

Rachel he joined the Army right after highschool as an enlisted member. He became a commissioned officer in June of '97. Most people graduate highschool between 17 or 18 so given his age of 39. Yeah, he could have retired because he's been in service for 20 years if not close to it.

Yes, but does his time in medical school--paid for by the army--count toward those 20 years? I'm not clear on that. And if it was, why did he tell his family that he wanted to quit, but that the army wouldn't let him? Stop-loss? Lying? A misunderstanding? Psychosis? Why did the Army keep this nut if he supposedly wanted out so badly?

He was probably doing reserve while he went to medical school and as far as the Army saying he couldn't leave after they paid for his medical schooling, I'm not entirely sure on that. They cannot force someone to stay in if they've served their years enlisted on their contract. Now they may not wanted him to leave because they invested so much into him but they couldn't force him to stay.

How much does medical school cost? Yeah, that's why they didn't want him to get out they paid for his bachelor's and his doctorate's degrees they figure if they put that much money into you, you're going to pay them back one way or the other.

If I wanted to back out of my DEP contract and decide "eh I don't want to be in the military anymore" they couldn't legally do anything to me. They'd try to use scare tactics to try and make me stay however. He was trying to get out before his time on his contract was up which they aren't going to do unless you're serverly injured, have a debilatating medical condition or something of that nature.

What I don't get is if he wanted out after 9/11, why the hell did he re-enlist? As far as I know, no enlistment is 8 years long. He could have gotten his doctorate's, completed his time, and when it was done hit the pavement running and they couldn't touch him.

A lot of people make the mistake of deciding to go into the military without doing any type of research and then look stupid when they see that they don't like it and want out. That's why I try to inform anyone going in or debating on whether to join or not before they even talk to their recruiter. Like it or not some recruiters do lie or skirt the truth. So far mine has been completely honest with me (I ask questions I already know the answer to just to test him from time to time) and that has made me respect him all the more.

This man has no justification for his actions what so ever I don't care what problems anyone may have, including Majors in the health care field. If you need conseling, it's available to even them, gunning down 43 people in cold blood is just no. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

T.S.Orr wrote:

This man has no justification for his actions what so ever I don't care what problems anyone may have, including Majors in the health care field. If you need conseling, it's available to even them, gunning down 43 people in cold blood is just no. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

No, there's no possible justification.

Freezer wrote:

Harley Quinn hyenaholic wrote:

Why is nobody pissed off that the guy was harrassed for being a Muslim? That's appalling. And I'll bet in the US military 'harrassed' is a nice and careful way of saying, "This guy was treated like pigshit by his comrades and we overlooked it."

A) Because he's a grown ass man.
B) As a major on an Army base, the # of people who could give him shit about being Muslim and not catch hell for it is probably in the single digits.
C) HE SHOT FIFTY PEOPLE.

I agree with you on C, but not on A or B.

I've known grown men to be bullied, sometimes to the point of tears by women in a junior role to them. Seriously. Bullying tactics can be used by people in junior positions on people in senior positions. It's not frequent (most bullying is senior on junior, or male on female) but I've met it.

And yes, my employer has a 'no bullying' policy that everyone's sat through umpty-ump times during their career, but it still goes on - at any one time, I always have at least one bullying case that I'm trying to deal with.

Oh for God's sake.

Penguin wrote:

Oh for God's sake.

Your point?

The original argument with Harley (I think it was Harley) was that the bloke couldn't have been bullied because he was a senior officer and was a bloke. Neither of those statements are true. Blokes get bullied, and people in senior positions get bullied. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

I bet President Bush got bullied by Cheney.

Holy hell.

Look, we've already been over this. Re-read the thread. A major has too much power over subordinates for that to be a legitimate point. If someone who works for you in the civilian world works for you and tries to bully you, you can sue them. In the military, if you're an officer and someone does it to you, you can have their ass thrown in jail. And that's just one option. If he's their commanding officer there's a wide range of non-judicial punishment options open to him. That's all before taking it to other routes like MEO.

It just holds. No. Water. So, being A: a grown-ass man, he should've B: used those options instead of C. He chose C, if he was harrassed. Fuck.

Penguin wrote:

A major has too much power over subordinates for that to be a legitimate point. If someone who works for you in the civilian world works for you and tries to bully you, you can sue them.

Where I work, if a senior officer* is bullied by a junior, the senior can get them sacked. And that kind of bullying still goes on. Bullying is a serious matter, hard to prove even when the person is guilty, and people are, in general, unwilling to make complaints, particularly complaints which are going to make them look a bit stupid.

I'm not using this as an excuse - he shouldn't have shot anyone. But saying that bullying couldn't happen is just factually incorrect. Even in those circumstances, it can happen.

* The military isn't the only place you have officers.

rachel wrote:

T.S.Orr wrote:

Rachel he joined the Army right after highschool as an enlisted member. He became a commissioned officer in June of '97. Most people graduate highschool between 17 or 18 so given his age of 39. Yeah, he could have retired because he's been in service for 20 years if not close to it.

Yes, but does his time in medical school--paid for by the army--count toward those 20 years? I'm not clear on that. And if it was, why did he tell his family that he wanted to quit, but that the army wouldn't let him? Stop-loss? Lying? A misunderstanding? Psychosis? Why did the Army keep this nut if he supposedly wanted out so badly?

Different jobs in the military have different enlistemnt contracts. I'm currently enlisting in the Navy, where a job in the Nuclear program requires six years active duty since the school is so long on it's own and they give rather hefty bonuses to those few that make it through the entire program.

Contracted officers, however, are free to leave once their contract obligations are finished, and it's far easier for them to walk away than an enlisted junior officer. T.S. Orr explained it a little better than I could.

From what I understand, it might have been a combination of many different events. The guy suffered from a lot of stress - harassment, and having to listen to war stories with his deployment to the Middle East were probably all factors. I'm not too sure I believe the whole 9/11 link, but apparently the guy is awake now and he might be willing to talk.

Raine wrote:

From what I understand, it might have been a combination of many different events. The guy suffered from a lot of stress - harassment, and having to listen to war stories with his deployment to the Middle East were probably all factors. I'm not too sure I believe the whole 9/11 link, but apparently the guy is awake now and he might be willing to talk.

He's awake and he's demanding a lawyer.

Also, the Army says they've discovered no connection between him and any of the people involved in 9/11. Nor did he have an accomplices, as was generally believed. He did this entirely on his own.

Rabid Badger wrote:

He's awake and he's demanding a lawyer.

Also, the Army says they've discovered no connection between him and any of the people involved in 9/11. Nor did he have an accomplices, as was generally believed. He did this entirely on his own.

There were claims he met extremists and such while at a mosque, but all these claims came out so quickly it was obvious they were jumping to conclusions.

Damn though, he wants a lawyer? I know he's entitled to one and a lot of issues within the military will be discovered because of this, but I almost hope they have trouble finding someone who wants to seriously defend him.

Lexin wrote:

Penguin wrote:

A major has too much power over subordinates for that to be a legitimate point. If someone who works for you in the civilian world works for you and tries to bully you, you can sue them.

Where I work, if a senior officer* is bullied by a junior, the senior can get them sacked. And that kind of bullying still goes on. Bullying is a serious matter, hard to prove even when the person is guilty, and people are, in general, unwilling to make complaints, particularly complaints which are going to make them look a bit stupid.

I'm not using this as an excuse - he shouldn't have shot anyone. But saying that bullying couldn't happen is just factually incorrect. Even in those circumstances, it can happen.

* The military isn't the only place you have officers.

No one ever said that bullying couldn't happen to men once on this thread. It was said that it's not likely he was bullied because he was a Major in the military. Majors hold a vast amount of power over people. This man's rank was right under Col. which is in turn, right under the Generals (5 types) so he was very, very, very high ranking.

You honestly didn't just compare a coporate officer to a military officer. I honestly must have read that wrong, maybe my eyes are still dialated from my eye exam earlier today.

Okay as a civilian I don't expect you to get what we're trying to say fully but I'm going to try my best here. A civilian officer can get someone fired, give them a bad recommendation that whole story right. Our officers including the lowest ranking one can have someone arrested, court marshaled, etc. effectively ruining the rest of their lives. That's just two of the options, hell they can give someone absolute hell on earth for not saluting them. No enlisted person whether senior or junior would have the balls (excuse the terminology) to do that. That's signing their own death certificate (not really but still). Yes bullying does happen in the military just like every where else but someone of lower rank bullying a Commisioned officer (I assume lower rank because other CO have grown up by the time they've hit the commision) is complete bullshit.

Either way, bullying doesn't justify anything.