Well, Now We Know Why RTD Came to America

Torchwood Australia, I wonder what that would be like...



Actually, nevermind.

Gaijinguy: Oh, good, you're back online. And BNF stands for "Big Name Fan"--often people who write hugely popular fanfiction and think that means they can influence the canon. In a nutshell, Cassandra Claire. There may be some good BNFs out there, but I've never met 'em. To put it in TVTrope terms, it's the equivalent to RTD being a Promoted Fanboy who's Running the Asylum.

As for this . . . no. Just no. How dim do they think we are? I like my British shows staying British, okay? There is no possible reason why Torchwood needs to go American.

To be honest, I didn't really take to Torchwood. It came off to me as trying to be the more adult Doctor Who, but it didn't seem necessary. I liked the old Doctor Who just fine: its plots were often quite fun and made up for the fact that the special effects budget was scrounged out of the couch cushions in the green room. Still, Torchwood doesn't deserve what will almost inevitably be a terrible remake, and frankly, RTD needs to lay off.

Like Delcat said: the Whoniverse is a legacy project, and everybody in its history has added something. RTD was just the latest in a long line.

Edited because something wonky happened to my formatting.

I totally agree with Del that RTD has turned into the official equivalent of a BNF. He's been saying batshit insane things about Torchwood and Dr. Who at Cons ever since season one of Torchwood was released. He's obviously got an ego roughly the size of the Grand Canyon, and he's firmly convinced that since he invented Torchwood, he's the only person who has the ONE TRUE VISION of what it should be.

As to why he won't get Barrowman (or at least not at a very steep price), JB simply isn't overly fond of the states. His family moved here when he was six or so, and have lived here since, but he apparently had a great deal of trouble fitting in at school (the American accent is a fake-if you've ever seen an interview with him, he speaks with a pronounced Scottish accent), he wanted to become a Hollywood or Broadway star, and he was openly and flamboyantly gay, but not in the way Americans like their gays open and flamboyant. He moved to the U.K. specificallly because BBC approached him about playing Captain Jack in Torchwood. He and his partner were married in a UK civil ceremony shortly after he emigrated, and I've read more than a few interviews with him in which he praises the UK for it's tolerance of gays and it's willingness to show them as being just ordinary people. In the US, face it; you don't get that kind of thing outside of series on Showtime or HBO. You almost never get it in prime time (oddly enough, daytime soap operas seem to be more open to having gay characters and storylines than mainstream TV does)

When Ianto was killed off in COE, a lot of fans speculated it was because BBC 1 had offered RTD a chance to move Torchwood to prime time, and he wanted to 'clean it up' for what everyone thought was his intendedaudience-teenage boys who could drool over Eve Myles. Now I suspect Ianto's demise may have been more driven by the fact that he never intended to take it to BB1 at all-he'd already planned, if he got the go from BBC 1, to move it to America and try to get a major deal, and he knew the idea of Jack and Ianto being the canon couple wouldn't go over well with most American networks.

He said once, in an interview, that he never intended Jack and Ianto to end up together; that was the work of Stephen Moffatt, who he left in charge of the show after the first episode so he could get back to Dr. Who. Mofatt apparently took it the way he did because he thought the interaction between Barrowman and Gareth David-Lloyd was interesting enough to possibly build a relationship out of. RTD's own plans involved Jack and Gwen getting together, and her being his 'one twu wub' the way Rose was Ten's. Never mind that Gwen had a live-in boyfriend and an extremely ill-advised affair with Owen (surely bastard that he was, but I loved him for it). She was supposed to be Jack's 'soul mate,' which makes RTD sound like nothing so much as a crazed Harry/Hermione shipper who's still frothing at the mouth over the fact Harry ended up with Ginny.

Never mind that Jack can't die, and thus has very little use for 'one twu wubs.'

Rabid Badger wrote:

He said once, in an interview, that he never intended Jack and Ianto to end up together; that was the work of Stephen Moffatt, who he left in charge of the show after the first episode so he could get back to Dr. Who. Mofatt apparently took it the way he did because he thought the interaction between Barrowman and Gareth David-Lloyd was interesting enough to possibly build a relationship out of. RTD's own plans involved Jack and Gwen getting together, and her being his 'one twu wub' the way Rose was Ten's. Never mind that Gwen had a live-in boyfriend and an extremely ill-advised affair with Owen (surely bastard that he was, but I loved him for it). She was supposed to be Jack's 'soul mate,' which makes RTD sound like nothing so much as a crazed Harry/Hermione shipper who's still frothing at the mouth over the fact Harry ended up with Ginny.

Never mind that Jack can't die, and thus has very little use for 'one twu wubs.'

I did not know this. It makes perfect sense now.

Seiran mentioned that he's admitted to having a huge thing for hurt/comfort in one interview or another, as well. Does that make MORE things make sense?

not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...

ZoZo wrote:

Rabid Badger wrote:

He said once, in an interview, that he never intended Jack and Ianto to end up together; that was the work of Stephen Moffatt, who he left in charge of the show after the first episode so he could get back to Dr. Who. Mofatt apparently took it the way he did because he thought the interaction between Barrowman and Gareth David-Lloyd was interesting enough to possibly build a relationship out of. RTD's own plans involved Jack and Gwen getting together, and her being his 'one twu wub' the way Rose was Ten's. Never mind that Gwen had a live-in boyfriend and an extremely ill-advised affair with Owen (surely bastard that he was, but I loved him for it). She was supposed to be Jack's 'soul mate,' which makes RTD sound like nothing so much as a crazed Harry/Hermione shipper who's still frothing at the mouth over the fact Harry ended up with Ginny.

Never mind that Jack can't die, and thus has very little use for 'one twu wubs.'

I did not know this. It makes perfect sense now.

Indeed. Huh. I always wondered why there was that annoying thing with Gwen, but I breathed a sigh of relief when nothing came out of it.
I lol'd at the thing with Gwen and Owen, because Owen was my favourite strictly Torchwood character and I got some sort of sick satisfaction in all of it. I don't know, Gwen's character's role I could appreciate, but I couldn't appreciate Gwen at all.

Delcat wrote:

Seiran mentioned that he's admitted to having a huge thing for hurt/comfort in one interview or another, as well. Does that make MORE things make sense?

not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...

Not really, because though he was quite fond of doing horrible things to Jack, it was all hurt and no comfort (for actual comfort, you had to turn to fanfiction). Consider that not only did Jack spend a year on the ship with The Doctor, chained up, with the Master apparently killing him dozens of times a day in various and sundry horrible ways just to see if he'd stay dead, but in the final episode of the second season of Torchwood (Exit Wounds) he was buried alive under what would eventually become the City of Cardiff by his loony tunes brother (who he'd thought was dead) for close to 500 years, dug up in the late 1890s, frozen so that he could wake up at the correct time to keep his brother from destroying Cardiff completely, and NEVER showed any signs of damage. Some of the fanfic, especially what came out after 'Exit Wounds' dealt with what I think would've been a very real fear of being underground or in enclosed spaces. RTD enjoyed torturing him, but he couldn't be arsed to make it realistic. Jack might have been immortal, but he was still human, and you're not going to convince me he came out of either of those situations without some lingering trauma. But the only place you ever saw it was in fanfic. Where I come from, we don't consider that hurt/comfort; we consider it sadism.

I really don't see RTD having enough clout with BBC to let them basically hand over control of this show to a network like FOX.

I'm sure they remember that FOX was the network they went with with that poorly-received Eighth Doctor movie back in the 90s.

Not to mention FOX already has a show that has a lot of the things that a potential "Americanized" version of Torchwood would have. Unless this is sending signals that "Fringe" is not long for this world.

Rabid Badger wrote:

Delcat wrote:

Seiran mentioned that he's admitted to having a huge thing for hurt/comfort in one interview or another, as well. Does that make MORE things make sense?

not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...

Not really, because though he was quite fond of doing horrible things to Jack, it was all hurt and no comfort (for actual comfort, you had to turn to fanfiction). Consider that not only did Jack spend a year on the ship with The Doctor, chained up, with the Master apparently killing him dozens of times a day in various and sundry horrible ways just to see if he'd stay dead, but in the final episode of the second season of Torchwood (Exit Wounds) he was buried alive under what would eventually become the City of Cardiff by his loony tunes brother (who he'd thought was dead) for close to 500 years, dug up in the late 1890s, frozen so that he could wake up at the correct time to keep his brother from destroying Cardiff completely, and NEVER showed any signs of damage. Some of the fanfic, especially what came out after 'Exit Wounds' dealt with what I think would've been a very real fear of being underground or in enclosed spaces. RTD enjoyed torturing him, but he couldn't be arsed to make it realistic. Jack might have been immortal, but he was still human, and you're not going to convince me he came out of either of those situations without some lingering trauma. But the only place you ever saw it was in fanfic. Where I come from, we don't consider that hurt/comfort; we consider it sadism.

It's amazing to me that RTD never considered any lingering trauma for any of the characters (ok so the only trauma/nightmares ever revealed was Gwen having trouble dealing with the cannibals in season 1 and all that did was start the affair with Owen): Jack and his many varied deaths over the years; Ianto surviving Canary Warf for example. Hell, any other show involving immortals (Highlander, Forever Knight etc) shows the characters dealing with shit that's happened to them in the past even if it was several thousand years ago.

theromangeneral wrote:

It's amazing to me that RTD never considered any lingering trauma for any of the characters (ok so the only trauma/nightmares ever revealed was Gwen having trouble dealing with the cannibals in season 1 and all that did was start the affair with Owen): Jack and his many varied deaths over the years; Ianto surviving Canary Warf for example. Hell, any other show involving immortals (Highlander, Forever Knight etc) shows the characters dealing with shit that's happened to them in the past even if it was several thousand years ago.

Yeah, that totally amazed me as well. Ianto and the whole mess with Canary Wharf and Lisa (how are you supposed to deal with being one of, at the most, 20 survivors out of 300 people AND your girlfriend being turned into a Cyberman)?. We didn't even get that background till the final episode of season Two, where we found out why Tosh was so willing to slavishly follow Jack, and why Owen was such a prick. Would it have killed RTD to have let the occasional hint drop? Because it would've made a whole lot more sense as to why Owen sort've lost his mind after Katie flew away and opened the Rift manipulator. It would've explained his animosity towards Ianto over he and Jack's relationship. We might have understood why he insisted on keeping Tosh at arms length, when it was so obvious she was attracted to him. If we'd known Tosh spent roughly two years in a UNIT prison, it would've explained her shyness and tendency to keep to herself (the poor girl was shell-shocked!).

But the only person we ever got any explanation for was Gwen, and then it was confessing to Rhys she'd had an affair with Owen, then retconning him to make herself feel better, and sticking her nose into the whole Flat Holme business. I always found it interesting that Ianto apparently knew about Flat Holme, and had likely taken care of things there during the Year That Never Was, and all Gwen could do was get her nose out of joint because Jack didn't trust her enough to tell her about it, then bollocks things up by thinking it was a good idea to take Noah's mother to see him; not bothering to consider what the consequences might be.

I have a theory that RTD's POV characters (Rose, Gwen, Martha, et al) were his 'Mary Sues.' His way of injecting himself into the proceedings as the supposed purveyor of all that was good and right. Lord knows, Gwen, Rose and Martha all had suish traits. I'm still not sure how Donna escaped being suified (except, of course, that she didn't-for daring to be unique and different, she ended up with her mind wiped and Rose got the half-doctor clone she was responsible for inadvertently creating as a consolation prize).

Rabid Badger wrote:

theromangeneral wrote:

It's amazing to me that RTD never considered any lingering trauma for any of the characters (ok so the only trauma/nightmares ever revealed was Gwen having trouble dealing with the cannibals in season 1 and all that did was start the affair with Owen): Jack and his many varied deaths over the years; Ianto surviving Canary Warf for example. Hell, any other show involving immortals (Highlander, Forever Knight etc) shows the characters dealing with shit that's happened to them in the past even if it was several thousand years ago.

Yeah, that totally amazed me as well. Ianto and the whole mess with Canary Wharf and Lisa (how are you supposed to deal with being one of, at the most, 20 survivors out of 300 people AND your girlfriend being turned into a Cyberman)?. We didn't even get that background till the final episode of season Two, where we found out why Tosh was so willing to slavishly follow Jack, and why Owen was such a prick. Would it have killed RTD to have let the occasional hint drop? Because it would've made a whole lot more sense as to why Owen sort've lost his mind after Katie flew away and opened the Rift manipulator. It would've explained his animosity towards Ianto over he and Jack's relationship. We might have understood why he insisted on keeping Tosh at arms length, when it was so obvious she was attracted to him. If we'd known Tosh spent roughly two years in a UNIT prison, it would've explained her shyness and tendency to keep to herself (the poor girl was shell-shocked!).

Exactly, exploring some of those issues would have made for more compelling "drama".

Rabid Badger wrote:

But the only person we ever got any explanation for was Gwen, and then it was confessing to Rhys she'd had an affair with Owen, then retconning him to make herself feel better, and sticking her nose into the whole Flat Holme business. I always found it interesting that Ianto apparently knew about Flat Holme, and had likely taken care of things there during the Year That Never Was, and all Gwen could do was get her nose out of joint because Jack didn't trust her enough to tell her about it, then bollocks things up by thinking it was a good idea to take Noah's mother to see him; not bothering to consider what the consequences might be.

To me it makes far more sense that Jack would have told Ianto about some of the more nasty realities like Flat Holme - aside from that he would have found out anyway given he was keeper of the archives (and how did he never find any file of Jack's previous investigations? Did Jack go through the achives and hide them all or something?) he'd already shown that he can deal with the nasty shit professionally (the whole incedent with Lisa aside).
And those about Gwen are just a couple of the things that made me severly skeptical that she's supposed to be the "human element" of the team. How many people would have been better off if she'd listened to people with more experience rather than playing the emotion card? Probably helps fuel my dislike for the character that she reminds me of someone I went to school with and really didnt like (cheated, stuck her nose where it didnt belong, was always right, and never faced consequences of actions).

Rabid Badger wrote:

I have a theory that RTD's POV characters (Rose, Gwen, Martha, et al) were his 'Mary Sues.' His way of injecting himself into the proceedings as the supposed purveyor of all that was good and right. Lord knows, Gwen, Rose and Martha all had suish traits. I'm still not sure how Donna escaped being suified (except, of course, that she didn't-for daring to be unique and different, she ended up with her mind wiped and Rose got the half-doctor clone she was responsible for inadvertently creating as a consolation prize).

Still pissed over what they did to Donna (she's my fav of the New Who companions). You have an interesting theory there, which I'm not sure i can add to.

While I agree with everything else...

Quote :

and he's firmly convinced that since he invented Torchwood, he's the
only person who has the ONE TRUE VISION of what it should be.

...isn't that generally part of a creator's rights? That even if someone else takes over the show and something other than the original plan is what becomes canon, that the original creator can have his/her original vision as "what's right?"

Thanos6 wrote:

While I agree with everything else...

Quote :

and he's firmly convinced that since he invented Torchwood, he's the
only person who has the ONE TRUE VISION of what it should be.

...isn't that generally part of a creator's rights? That even if someone else takes over the show and something other than the original plan is what becomes canon, that the original creator can have his/her original vision as "what's right?"

True. But then he gives interviews complaining about how the people he left in charge of it while he was busy with Dr. Who (Stephen Moffatt and Euros Lynn), didn't remain 'true to his vision.' Mind you, these interviews didn't come out until AFTER the series had aired. I realize being in charge of Dr. Who likely took up all his time, but if he was truly so passionate about them doing Torchwood according to 'his vision,' he should've sat down with them and told them what his vision was, and he apparently never did. Then he complained after the fact that they hadn't done the show the way he wanted it done. Where I come from, this is known as 'killing the messenger,' and is generally considered impolite.

Ahh. I didn't know all that backstory. I appreciate it, now I see where you were coming from.

Rabid Badger wrote:

True. But then he gives interviews complaining about how the people he left in charge of it while he was busy with Dr. Who (Stephen Moffatt and Euros Lynn), didn't remain 'true to his vision.' Mind you, these interviews didn't come out until AFTER the series had aired. I realize being in charge of Dr. Who likely took up all his time, but if he was truly so passionate about them doing Torchwood according to 'his vision,' he should've sat down with them and told them what his vision was, and he apparently never did.

To be fair, (he said, still unable to believe that he's defending RTD, but Midnight and Turn Left really were that good) he could have told them what his "vision" was, and Moffatt could well have decided that he prefered HIS vision. Of course, if RTD is the man ultimately in charge of the project, the final product ultimately rests on his shoulders; decisions that result from delegation are as much his doing as the person he's delegated to. However, Moffatt does appear to have a lot of creative freedom- after his string of hits, there's no particular reason he shouldn't.

. . . all THAT said, I like Dr. Who as it is- even the bad stuff (Tinkerbell Jesus) is entertaining. I don't see that making an American show in the Whoniverse would really add anything to it, not without going in a radically different direction.

gaijinguy wrote:

. . . all THAT said, I like Dr. Who as it is- even the bad stuff (Tinkerbell Jesus) is entertaining. I don't see that making an American show in the Whoniverse would really add anything to it, not without going in a radically different direction.

Oh, I totally agree with you on that. To me, the fact Dr. Who was originally conceived and filmed in the UK is what makes it so much fun to watch. I can't even imagine why anyone would feel we need an American version of the show, or what radical new direction they could take it in that could possibly justify filming it.

We won't even mention the chaos that would ensue from having two different mythologies and timelines to try and keep straight. It's hard enough remembering who's who (pun intended) on Dr. Who now.

I was wandering through Wikipedia, and thought I'd see how many British shows had been remade for the US, and how long they lasted.

The results can be found here:

List of American TV Series Based on British Shows

Interestingly enough, it seems that reality-type shows tend to do the best; maybe because you've got a constantly changing cast, so no one ever gets too attached to any one person.

Comedies seem to fare well also: All in the Family, Sanford and Son, and Maude were all based on British shows.

Sci-Fi, alas, doesn't do well at all.

Oh dear. That page has reminded me of the time I watched the US version of Coupling. My brain was leaking out of my ears within seconds.

But, as others have said, one of the best things about Torchwood is its Welshness. It's funny seeing befuddled Welsh folk reacting to aliens, as this is something one doesn't normally get to see. From the sounds of the article, the US version will be straight up "here is an agency, they are chasing aliens without humour".

Rabid Badger wrote:

Comedies seem to fare well also: All in the Family, Sanford and Son, and Maude were all based on British shows.

The first two are correct, but Maude went the other way, an American original and UK remake (which I hadn't known about before). That's one thing people forget when they decry remakes. Some of the most popular American sitcoms of the 70s -- All in the Family (but not its spinoffs), Sanford and Son (but not its spinoffs), and Three's Company (and both its spinoffs) -- were adapted from British originals. There have been some UK sitcoms based on US ones (including adaptations of Golden Girls, Who's the Boss, and That 70s Show) but they've been more successful with game shows.


In Steptoe and Son, the father was played by Wilfrid Brambell, who was also Paul's grandfather in A Hard Day's Night. [He was even billed on posters as Wilfrid "Steptoe" Brambell.]

Maximilia wrote:

Why no, I have nothing to be bitter about because of FOX. God dammit.

Seriously, they might as well call any series on FOX I like "Soon to be Cancelled".

I believe this may be relevant to your interests.

And they STILL forgot about "Alien Nation"! *still seethes over that one*

Saleha wrote:

And they STILL forgot about "Alien Nation"! *still seethes over that one*

No, those were supposedly just the shows that Fox had canceled during the time between Family Guy's own cancellation in 2002 and its return in that 2005 episode. [Quite a few of them, though, had been axed in 2000 and 2001, Action was canceled back in 1999 and Costello in 1998.] Alien Nation got canned back in 1990, way too early for that list.

Mafiosa wrote:

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Seriously, they might as well call any series on FOX I like "Soon to be Cancelled to Make Room for More Seth McFarlene Bullshit".

Fixed that for ya.

Fixed again.

Rabid Badger wrote:

The results can be found here:

List of American TV Series Based on British Shows

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Footballers Wives has a confirmed pilot remake in the US, to be named Footballer Wives

*sustained groan*

At least there isn't an attempt at a US adaption of 'Only Fools & Horses'.

Just Chipper wrote:

Quote :

Footballers Wives has a confirmed pilot remake in the US, to be named Footballer Wives

*sustained groan*

At least there isn't an attempt at a US adaption of 'Only Fools & Horses'.

And why would they call it Footballers Wifes? We call them Football Players here.

That said, 'Footballers Wives' sounds like the name of none-to-classy niche porno flick.

Rabid Badger wrote:

Just Chipper wrote:

Quote :

Footballers Wives has a confirmed pilot remake in the US, to be named Footballer Wives

*sustained groan*

And why would they call it Footballers Wifes? We call them Football Players here.

Eh, looking back it's obviously not that bad. It seemed when I first glanced over it that it was like a completely needless dumbing down of the phrase, similar to producers changing the title of the recently made 'Let the Right One In' to a future adaptation: 'Let Me In'.

That Football Wives pilot was made three years ago and is long dead. Unless there's a bootleg copy floating out there, most of us will never have a chance to see it. If you go digging through pilots, you'll find plenty of examples that aren't on that list, but that seems a bit excessive (especially since a great many have never been viewed by human eyes).