Why God, Why?
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Why God, Why?


 
HomeHome  Latest imagesLatest images  RegisterRegister  Log in  

 

 AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will

Go down 
+25
anangrychocobo
Ceres
Lysander
VB
A_Note_Chaotic
Chris91
Dr. Professor Science
Harley Quinn hyenaholic
Verandering
theweirdkind
Narwhal
Electron Blue
Maximilia
KelinciHutan
Root Admin
Knorg
Lady Anne
Psy-4
Penguin
ZoZo
Sakurelf
grmblfjx
Raine
unskilled78
Freezer
29 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3
AuthorMessage
KelinciHutan
Global Nomad
Global Nomad
KelinciHutan


Join date : 2009-06-03
Age : 39
Location : USS Enterprise

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 8:35 am

Lysander wrote:
KelinciHutan wrote:
people who own an ISP do have a right to block whatever sites they like
As much as Rupert Murdock would like to switch Fox over to 24 hour hardcore porn for the raitings, he can't. People in the communications sector are regulated by the FCC.
But now you're talking about two different things. In this case, 4chan would be Fox, since they're the ones doing the "broadcasting." The ISP is just how you access it, so they're more like your cable company. Companies that offer cable and satilite television not only can, but do prevent people from watching certain channels presuming they haven't paid for them. Given that 4chan is mostly porn anyway, if the FCC were going to regulate who got to do what, it would be 4chan that'd be in trouble, not the ISP.

Lysander wrote:
You can't just do anything you want to people's ability to talk to each other, just because you happen to own a company.
You can, actually. UPS does regulate, to some degree, how their services are used. That does something to people's ability to talk to each other. While most companies must maintain a certain standard of services by law and in order to keep their clients, once those standards are met, they actually can do whatever they want.

Blocking 4chan is not preventing people from talking to each other. It's preventing access to one of many, many thousands of websites. Yeah, I wish they hadn't. It still doesn't mean they can't.

I put my finger on what was bothering me about all this last night after logging off. You are arguing for another form of enforced morality, coming from another direction. We're all in agreement here that we should have the ability to access whatever sites we want without being hindered. Or, at least, to determine which sites we want to block for ourselves. And that the "moral guardians" who want to say that they should be allowed to decide what is and is not good for everyone are basically trying to be the helicopter parents of the whole world. However, going the other direction and saying to someone that they must use their own property as somebody else sees fit, because they are wrong to do otherwise, is also an attempt by moral guardians to enforce their views on others. It is the difference between "I think they shouldn't" and "They may not."
Back to top Go down
Psy-4
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 9:53 am

KelinciHutan wrote:
we should have the ability to access whatever sites we want without being hindered.
KelinciHutan wrote:
saying to someone that they must use their own property as somebody else sees fit, because they are wrong to do otherwise, is also an attempt by moral guardians to enforce their views on others.
AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 384608
Back to top Go down
KelinciHutan
Global Nomad
Global Nomad
KelinciHutan


Join date : 2009-06-03
Age : 39
Location : USS Enterprise

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 10:22 am

Psy-4 wrote:
KelinciHutan wrote:
we should have the ability to access whatever sites we want without being hindered.
KelinciHutan wrote:
saying to someone that they must use their own property as somebody else sees fit, because they are wrong to do otherwise, is also an attempt by moral guardians to enforce their views on others.
AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 384608
Right, so since you're not reading, apparently...

KelinciHutan wrote:
We're all in agreement here that we should have the ability to access whatever sites we want without being hindered. ... However, going the other direction and saying to someone that they must use their own property as somebody else sees fit, because they are wrong to do otherwise, is also an attempt by moral guardians to enforce their views on others. It is the difference between "I think they shouldn't" and "They may not."
Should = you ought to do something but can choose not to
Must = you have no choice but to do the thing

Obviously, I think what I think. If I didn't think that I am correct to think as I do, I would think something else. I won't apologize for having opinions. But my opinion of what people should do does not equate to me enforcing that opinion to the point that they must do it.

AT&T tried to enforce a "must" on people. "You must not visit 4chan." Even though the people who wanted to were using their own computers (probably) and doing so of their own accord. I don't think they should do this. Enough of their clients also thought they should not do this to the point that they decided they should not and relented. Ly and Lady Anne are arguing for a different must. "You must not block websites." Even though the people doing it are using their own computers as they themselves chose to and not harming any one by doing so.

So, yeah, I think people should let other people make their own decisions as to what they do with their own things. AT&T should let people surf the web at their pleasure. But, AT&T should also be allowed to choose how to use their own things. And when the people surfing the web are essentially borrowing AT&T's things to do it, that means that AT&T determines how their things are used, even though their decision will affect others. I don't think they should play parent, but I can not say that they must not. It's a very fine distinction, I admit, but there you are.
Back to top Go down
Psy-4
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 11:25 am

Can the passive, limp, politically neutral bullshit. Take a definitive stance or fuck off from the discussion.

KelinciHutan wrote:
Ly and Lady Anne are arguing for a different must. "You must not block websites."
No, I believe they are arguing "You must not make decisions for others, period." And the statement itself is the only exception to the rule that it makes.

The difference between 'must' and 'should' is the difference between being heard and being ignored.

Playing 'parent' will always result in objection, so why not just skip the bullshit and say that they are no allowed to do it in the first place?

KelinciHutan wrote:
I don't think they should play parent, but I can not say that they must not.
Fuck authoritarianism.
Back to top Go down
anangrychocobo
Sporkbender
Sporkbender



Join date : 2009-06-13

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 11:29 am

KelinciHutan wrote:
I won't apologize for having opinions.

No, you won't. Like many people on this forum, you'll pat yourself on the back for having them, despite the fact that nearly everyone has them and they're worth less than almost nothing.
Back to top Go down
KelinciHutan
Global Nomad
Global Nomad
KelinciHutan


Join date : 2009-06-03
Age : 39
Location : USS Enterprise

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 12:10 pm

Psy-4 wrote:
Can the passive, limp, politically neutral bullshit. Take a definitive stance or fuck off from the discussion.
I did, and have explained it just about as clearly as anyone can ask. You don't like it, but that's your lookout and not mine. I won't say you must agree.

Psy-4 wrote:
KelinciHutan wrote:
Ly and Lady Anne are arguing for a different must. "You must not block websites."
No, I believe they are arguing "You must not make decisions for others, period." And the statement itself is the only exception to the rule that it makes.
If you must not make decisions for others, period, then you must not tell AT&T how to use their servers. Their servers makes it their decision, not yours.

You did make one good point, though. I am tired of this discussion, so I'm going now.
Back to top Go down
Psy-4
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 12:34 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Penguin
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Penguin


Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Wild Gray Yonder

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 12:37 pm

ITT Psy-4 is butthurt at the thought that somebody might slow his jacking off to lolicon down. FIGHT THE POWAA
Back to top Go down
quamp
Sporkbender
Sporkbender
quamp


Join date : 2009-06-11
Location : Locked away in Suburban hell

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 12:46 pm

Quote :
This is 4chan.org, a notorious free-for-all internet forum known for its unruly members, NSFW content, internet pranks and attacks, infamous hacking exploits, and as the source of widely established internet memes such as LOLcats and the Rick Roll.

Let's not forget Pedobear.

Who really wins in situations like this? The lawyers. I can only guess that this was really done to give AT&T's lawyers some extra work. Personally, I have seen censorship like this come and go for a long time. The only ones that win are the lawyers. :law:

You know, if they get away with this, it may be a matter of time before WGW gets censored.
Back to top Go down
http://quamp.deviantart.com
Psy-4
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 1:01 pm

*This comment has been edited by this user's ISP for the following reasons: Obsceninty, Tastlessness, Trolling, Faggotry*
Back to top Go down
Seule
My Mescaline
My Mescaline
Seule


Join date : 2009-06-11
Age : 31
Location : Tea & Castle Land

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 1:37 pm

Psy-4 wrote:
*This comment has been edited by this user's ISP for the following reasons: Obsceninty, Tastlessness, Trolling, Faggotry*

Oh crap, not obsceninty. That's the worst kind... :unskilled78:

Tastlessness is cool, though. I hate those goddamn tasts.
Back to top Go down
Psy-4
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Armbiter of Good Fanfiction



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 2:09 pm

*This comment has been edited and this user had their Internet Services suspended by their ISP for the following reasons: Libel, Offensiveness, Grammar Nazism*
Back to top Go down
Knorg
Behind Blue Eyes
Behind Blue Eyes
Knorg


Join date : 2009-06-06
Age : 41
Location : The Forest

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 2:13 pm


*This comment has been edited and this user had their Internet Services suspended by their ISP for the following reasons: FAT CHICKS*
Back to top Go down
Mikey Go WOOGA
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Mikey Go WOOGA


Join date : 2009-06-16
Age : 34
Location : In desperate pursuit of lulz.

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 4:38 pm

*This comment has been edited by the ISP because it served no purpose other than to dumb up the internet*
Back to top Go down
saeku
Fapmaster
Fapmaster



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 5:01 pm

AT&T explains.

So, apparently people (*cough*anontalk*cough*) have been DDoSing 4chan. Moot attempted to stop the DDoS from getting on 4chan, but inadvertently spilled DDoS all over the place, affecting the performance of other sites. AT&T blocked access to img.4chan.org in order to stop its other customers from being affected by the DDoS targeted at 4chan.

In this case, although I think it was incredibly stupid for AT&T to block 4chan, AT&T has a right to protect its innocent customers from being DDoSed by others (even if it was an accident). Discuss if you wish.
Back to top Go down
Ceres
Sporkbender
Sporkbender
Ceres


Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 6:44 pm

What/who the hell is AnonTalk? Is there an Internet war happening that I didn't know about?
Back to top Go down
Lady Anne
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Lady Anne


Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 47
Location : The land of the fruits and nuts

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 6:54 pm

Ceres wrote:
What/who the hell is AnonTalk? Is there an Internet war happening that I didn't know about?
And why weren't we invited?

Back on topic: If ISPs block websites, aren't they interfering with the private property rights of the users? Wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to use their computer for any legal purpose they please? And if the ISP has a monopoly in an area, wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to spend their hard-earned money on any service they choose?

On the other hand, think of the money that could be made if you were to design software that could get around the ISPs blocks. You could make millions! AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 831506
Back to top Go down
http://www.angelfire.com/yt/anneblair/index.html
saeku
Fapmaster
Fapmaster



Join date : 2009-06-10

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 8:33 pm

Ceres wrote:
What/who the hell is AnonTalk? Is there an Internet war happening that I didn't know about?

Some shitty nobody pedo 4chan wannabee site that has been using bots to spam the hell out of 4chan lately. I haven't gone to their website because I do not want to give it a single hit, and also because any site that advertises using bots is probably going to stick its arm up my computer's ass and use it as a handpuppet.

Ceres wrote:
Back on topic: If ISPs block websites, aren't they interfering with the private property rights of the users? Wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to use their computer for any legal purpose they please? And if the ISP has a monopoly in an area, wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to spend their hard-earned money on any service they choose?

In this case, the website in question (4chan) was already interfering with AT&T's customer's "rights" to use their computer for any legal purpose they pleased by DDoSing other sites, preventing those users from getting to them. Also, customers' property rights to their computers do not extend to internet access, since owning a computer is not the same as owning access to the internet; it's just like buying a cell phone doesn't give you the right to make phone calls in areas that aren't covered by your cell phone service provider. Finally, users do not have a "right" to spend their hard-earned money on any service they choose. There are still places in the US where there's no high-speed internet service, but users there don't have a right to demand it.

There's a difference between blocking a site to censor its views and blocking a site because it is attacking other sites.
Back to top Go down
Freezer
Epic-Level Pornomancer
Epic-Level Pornomancer
Freezer


Join date : 2009-06-10
Age : 50
Location : Memphis, TN

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 9:33 pm

It still boggle my mind that there are people who think 4chan isn't "anything goes" enough... and get that upset about it.
Back to top Go down
http://freezer.livejournal.com
Penguin
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Penguin


Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Wild Gray Yonder

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2009 10:27 pm

Lady Anne wrote:
Ceres wrote:
What/who the hell is AnonTalk? Is there an Internet war happening that I didn't know about?
And why weren't we invited?

spBack on topic: If ISPs block websites, aren't they interfering with the private property rights of the users? Wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to use their computer for any legal purpose they please? And if the ISP has a monopoly in an area, wouldn't they be interfering with the users' rights to spend their hard-earned money on any service they choose?
Nope. It goes back to the restaurant example. It doesn't matter if you spend money on your car to get to the restaurant.
Back to top Go down
Lady Anne
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Lady Anne


Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 47
Location : The land of the fruits and nuts

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 29, 2009 7:24 pm

Now that I think about it, AT&T was probably right to temporarily block 4Chan in order to protect its users from the DDoS attacks. However...

It would be very easy for ISPs to block sites for no good reason (moral guardians, etc. do not a good reason make). For that reason, I think we need a Net Neutrality law in place so that people can continue to have access to whatever they want on the Internet (even if it does offend/annoy/cause butthurt/whatever). Barring that, I think we need a publicly-owned ISP that is available to everyone and blocks nothing except maybe kiddie porn. People who don't like it could go with the private providers (kind of like the schools--both public and private exist, and you can make the choice to send your kids to private school if you don't like the public schools).

And before this starts a school wank, let me say that I attended both private and public schools as a child and actually found the public schools more to my liking--but that's just me. For some people, it's the other way around, and some people just don't care either way.
Back to top Go down
http://www.angelfire.com/yt/anneblair/index.html
Dr. Professor Science
Ghoti
Ghoti
Dr. Professor Science


Join date : 2009-06-25
Age : 32
Location : One of the guys with the giant papier-mâché dongs in Lysistrata

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 30, 2009 7:30 pm

Ceres wrote:
Weeeeellll... it MAY deny them freedom of speech, which is protected by the Constitution. In other words, it is not so simple.

This is beyond my expertize, BUT you MAY be able to make the argument that AT&T is acting like a monopoly if it's the only ISP in the area. A lawyer cleverer than I could sue AT&T, take it to the Supreme Court and force them to decide if the Internet is as important to free speech as a newspaper, which has extraordinary protections that normal businesses don't have. That is, that the internet is a matter of public interest, like a public utility. I mean, I know some states like California have private enterprises selling stuff like electricity, which is a public interest. Since it's so important, they can sell it, but there are rules.

Using the pop up blocker example, that technology is for an average person to use. He has to take affirmative action to download the thing and install it. ISP filtering content, however, takes if off the person's hands, so that's a potential no-no.

A test case would be, ahdunno: testy blogger gets blocked by AT&T, gets allies at ACLU, and fights fights fights all the way up.

You would be correct if you think the Internet isn't necssary to live. But the same thing could be said about newspapers. You don't need newspapers or TV like you need water, but that doesn't mean it's a matter to be left up to corporations.

Nope. It does not deny a person's freedom of speech. Regardless of whether or not they have a monopoly over the Internet in your area, you are using their service. In a school, the teacher is allowed to punish you for swearing. You are using their service. You have the option to leave.
Back to top Go down
Lady Anne
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Lady Anne


Join date : 2009-06-12
Age : 47
Location : The land of the fruits and nuts

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 30, 2009 8:52 pm

Dr. Professor Science wrote:
Nope. It does not deny a person's freedom of speech. Regardless of whether or not they have a monopoly over the Internet in your area, you are using their service. In a school, the teacher is allowed to punish you for swearing. You are using their service. You have the option to leave.
Yes, it does deny a person's freedom of speech, because it prevents them from accessing certain information and from using certain sites to communicate to others. And no, you can't just leave when there's a monopoly. If you do that, you lose all access to this form of communication. It's like canceling your phone service because the phone company keeps cutting off your calls, then finding out that because they have a monopoly in your area, you can't get phone service at all, thus keeping you from communicating with people. (Yes, you could then use snail mail, but that takes how long? It's not a viable alternative.)

Just because you have the ability to abuse your power doesn't mean you should.
Back to top Go down
http://www.angelfire.com/yt/anneblair/index.html
Dr. Professor Science
Ghoti
Ghoti
Dr. Professor Science


Join date : 2009-06-25
Age : 32
Location : One of the guys with the giant papier-mâché dongs in Lysistrata

AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 EmptyFri Jul 31, 2009 1:42 am

Keep in mind that I'm just trying to explain what I'm relatively sure the current legal status of free speech is. I don't know what my opinion on it is.

You are using their service. They are allowed to do whatever they want with their service. If they have a monopoly, that is another legal issue, and one that isn't relevant to the case at hand. Under current law, monopolies are illegal, for this reason amongst many others. They are allowed to block whatever sites they so wish.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content





AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will   AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will - Page 3 Empty

Back to top Go down
 
AT&T Blocks 4Chan.org, Prepares Will
Back to top 
Page 3 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3
 Similar topics
-
» 'Stupid' driver blocks an ambulance with a patient inside it.
» Pakistan blocks access to Youtube and Facebook over cartoons

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Why God, Why? :: The Sporking Table :: GodAwful Bullshit-
Jump to: