France debates to ban burqa

Story here

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PARIS - French legislators took up the touchy subject of face-covering, body-length Muslim veils such as the burqa Wednesday, as a leading lawmaker softened his calls for an outright ban by suggesting the garments could be forbidden gradually.

Banning the garment is supported by the French president Nicolas Sarkozy.

Quote :

France's questioning of the veils has raised hackles among some Muslim groups abroad and prompted threats from an al-Qaida affiliate based in Algeria.

Will we see a 9-11 type attack in France? Who knows...

Quote :

Instead, he suggested a two-stage effort, "a ban preceded by six months to a year of dialogue, explanation and warnings."

Most of this, of course, will be coming from radical Muslims.
Can't we all get along here? Whatever happened to "live and let live?"

Well. I do think that the burqa is not so much part of a culture as it is a tool to suppress women (not even show your eyes? Come on), so I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

On the other hand, women who are used to it will feel awfully naked without. I wouldn't be comfortable going outside in just underwear, either, so I don't know if this is the right way of going about it.

Mikey to France: DO IT FAGGOTS!

Also, I can understand walking around in the street with them on. But if you want to take a picture for a drivers license, or go inside a bank, or government building, SHOW YOUR FACE!

/me waits for Psy-4 and company to show up and voice their support for this "freedom from religion."

Funny you should say that, Mikey, because all that is needed for this is to make facial concealment illegal, with no exceptions for cultural or religious reasons. It could be even under pretense of security risk. I'm not savvy in legal codex's, but I think that in some States facial concealment is illegal.

Quote :

burqa is not so much part of a culture as it is a tool to suppress women

Suppression of women is part of Islamic culture. Or is it 'was'? Or 'still getting there'? Or only in certain parts? There is no consistency there, and it's too much of a pain in the ass to say properly.

To wear the burqa or not to wear the burqa? That is the question.

Seriously, how about letting people make their own choices about what they wear?

Lady Anne wrote:

Seriously, how about letting people make their own choices about what they wear?

That would require getting rid of culture, tradition, and religion.

quamp wrote:

Most of this, of course, will be coming from radical Muslims.

...Or Algerian Muslims that are sick of being treated like crap by the French government. France's relationship with its Muslim population is far different from the one we have with ours.
That said, I think the ban is bullshit.

*waits patiently for Avari*

I wouldn't miss the burqa. But I suspect a lot of Muslims would not feel at all comfortable without it, whether men or women, and the non-radicals too.

It was originally a tool for the suppression of women. Trouble is that it's become so very effective that it is also part of their culture.

Psy-4 wrote:

Funny you should say that, Mikey, because all that is needed for this is to make facial concealment illegal, with no exceptions for cultural or religious reasons. It could be even under pretense of security risk. I'm not savvy in legal codex's, but I think that in some States facial concealment is illegal.

It is in most respects - there are some very narrow exceptions, but for the most part you have to have a bona fide medical or religious reason for it.

Even then, new technology is slowly phasing out these exceptions (in some states you can't even wear prescription glasses in your driver's license photo because it will be used for facial recognition purposes).

All this does is confirm my piss-poor opinion of the French government.

If this ban goes through, will Muslim women be forced to remain in their home at all times?

My problem: I don't see how banning women from wearing burqas is essentially any different than making them wear the burqas. Either way, the woman doesn't get much say, and her decision is made for her. Not to mention, it's very subjective territory. If a particular woman doesn't feel she's being suppressed by her burqa, and chooses to wear it, then is it anyone's business?

That said, there are some practical considerations, such as public safety. And I think there does need to be a limit to how much exception there is for religious practices.

grmblfjx wrote:

Well. I do think that the burqa is not so much part of a culture as it is a tool to suppress women (not even show your eyes? Come on), so I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

On the other hand, women who are used to it will feel awfully naked without. I wouldn't be comfortable going outside in just underwear, either, so I don't know if this is the right way of going about it.

This.

Psy-4 wrote:

Quote :

burqa is not so much part of a culture as it is a tool to suppress women

Suppression of women is part of Islamic culture. Or is it 'was'? Or 'still getting there'? Or only in certain parts? There is no consistency there, and it's too much of a pain in the ass to say properly.

No, I mean to cover your hair and stuff like that is "culture", and not just islamic. Just like you're not supposed to go into churches half-naked in some places (on our class trip to Italy the girls had to -at least- either wear a modest shirt or long pants/skirts, preferably both). Some muslim women choose to wear a head scarf just like some christian women choose to dress modestly, because they believe it is appropriate for them as religious people.

Making her wear a cheese-grater in front of her face, that's a bit over the top.


Do you remember feminism? Are you aware that women still often get paid less for the same job? Islamic culture doesn't have the monopoly on suppressing women, we've just made a little more progress here.

I'm not getting the logic of banning the burqa: "We think it is oppresive to women so we will take away their choice of wearing it."

Aggie wrote:

If this ban goes through, will Muslim women be forced to remain in their home at all times?

That's what I'm worried about. This ban may actually be increasing the suppression of these women.

grmblfjx wrote:

Islamic culture doesn't have the monopoly on suppressing women, we've just made a little more progress here.

We did, but you're going on a tangent that is unrelated to my post, which did not counter my point, and is, therefore, confusing to me about its purpose.

You know, I can see exactly hoe this was decided upon.

"Women covering up there entire bodies? That is not the French way!"
"But these are Muslim women, it is part of their religion."
"Are we not France! Religion be damned, the Berqa must go!"
"Viva la France!"

Psy-4 wrote:

grmblfjx wrote:

Islamic culture doesn't have the monopoly on suppressing women, we've just made a little more progress here.

We did, but you're going on a tangent that is unrelated to my post, which did not counter my point, and is, therefore, confusing to me about its purpose.

I did, yeah. I tried to make two points at once, only one related to your post.


My point was that saying "suppression of women is part of Islamic culture" comes across as ignorant both ways, towards muslims because it is a sweeping generalization, and towards the West because that implies that suppression of women is not happening here.

lmfao Somath.

In any case, I agree completely with Grumbles and DeeDee. If the concern is suppressing women, that must be taken up on an individual level first, and even then it's not like every single woman feels the same way about their traditions. The government has no place in deciding that kind of thing in such a fashion.

grmblfjx wrote:

My point was that saying "suppression of women is part of Islamic culture" comes across as ignorant both ways, towards muslims because it is a sweeping generalization,

Psy-4 wrote:

Or is it 'was'? Or 'still getting there'? Or only in certain parts? There is no consistency there, and it's too much of a
pain in the ass to say properly.

Reading! It does your points good.

grmblfjx wrote:

and towards the West because that implies that suppression of women is not happening
here.

After doing a double take and checking my post for saying that Islamic culture was the only one to have suppression of women, and not finding any, I say that you are full of crap and need to stop reading too much into posts with ass-backwards logic.

I'd be kinda pissed if I were Muslim there. After all, it's not prohibiting all facial concealment, and not even pretending it was. It seems a direct attack on one particular piece of clothing worn by one particular segment of the population. Whether the burqa itself is right or wrong is largely irrelevant here. The French government is picking out one part of the population to pass laws about... of course, I'm not French, so maybe that's just how they roll there. In America, people would be having screaming fits about being told what they could or could not wear... even if it's a piece of clothing that aids in suppressing women.

I'm not comfortable with this idea at all. I work with and see a lot of Muslim women every day, and most wear the full outfit. Not the burqa, but more often the two piece head covering/face veil and dress. (Which, frankly, I think looks pretty cool) (What? It does)

I don't think it is a tool of oppression in the Western world. Not really. A lot of the women I meet choose to wear the burqa, just like I choose to wear a dress. They honestly think that being modest is a part of Allah's will, and will follow it. And when I see their husbands, their husbands dress just as modestly. Shapeless clothing and head covering. (Shrugs) I don't know, none of this bothers me. It's not my religion, its theirs. This is how they choose to show their love and devotion to Islam.

Maximilia wrote:

In America, people would be having screaming fits about being told what they could or could not wear...

While not grasping the irony that wearing a burqa is part of an Islamic tradition and not an independently made decision? Touche.

Lapin wrote:

I don't think it is a tool of oppression in the Western world. Not really. A lot of the women I meet choose to wear the burqa, just like I choose to wear a dress.

But do you believe that a higher being wants you to wear a dress? At what point does obeying tradition ends and making personal decisions starts?