The Hobbit (spoilers!)

Well, Frodo was RIGHT IN MOUNT DOOM.

Plus, when Sam put it in weren't they in a cave?

DON'T QUESTION IT IT'S MAGIC

Yeah... it was probably for the best they cut Sam wearing the ring out of the movie, even if he was a badass about it.

ppl please you are all ignoring the biggest plothole of all which is EAGLES

why didnt they just fly the fucking ring to mount doom shit

Because I'm pretty sure a giant eye on a tower would see giant eagles flying right towards him.

Cyberwulf wrote:

ppl please you are all ignoring the biggest plothole of all which is EAGLES

why didnt they just fly the fucking ring to mount doom shit

Because that might have alerted Sauron to the fact that they were planning to do something, since eagles don't generally hang around there, due to all of the fellbeasts flying around. The idea of the quest was stealth, and to keep Sauron guessing.

Or because the ring corrupts everyone who bears it, except for Frodo, so Gandalf didn't want to risk it (hell, he didn't even trust himself to carry it!). There's no reason why an animal can't be just as easily corrupted by magical powers as a person, and who's to say that an eagle who puts the ring on wouldn't suddenly want to use it to become some super-dominant alpha-eagle?

Or because Gwaihiir felt that, as Lord of the Eagles, he was above such petty tasks as dropping a bit of metal into a volcano. After all, it took (at least in the film) the deaths of many of his cousins to make Treebeard want to get involved in the War of the Ring, so the eagles probably wouldn't care much for the whole affair, unless Sauron made it personal.

Take your pick.

Cunovendus wrote:

Cyberwulf wrote:

ppl please you are all ignoring the biggest plothole of all which is EAGLES

why didnt they just fly the fucking ring to mount doom shit

Because that might have alerted Sauron to the fact that they were planning to do something, since eagles don't generally hang around there, due to all of the fellbeasts flying around. The idea of the quest was stealth, and to keep Sauron guessing.

Or because the ring corrupts everyone who bears it, except for Frodo, so Gandalf didn't want to risk it (hell, he didn't even trust himself to carry it!). There's no reason why an animal can't be just as easily corrupted by magical powers as a person, and who's to say that an eagle who puts the ring on wouldn't suddenly want to use it to become some super-dominant alpha-eagle?

Or because Gwaihiir felt that, as Lord of the Eagles, he was above such petty tasks as dropping a bit of metal into a volcano. After all, it took (at least in the film) the deaths of many of his cousins to make Treebeard want to get involved in the War of the Ring, so the eagles probably wouldn't care much for the whole affair, unless Sauron made it personal.

Take your pick.

Also recall that the only guy who had any contact with the eagles is Gandalf, (and Radagast but I digress), so if he decides, yeah, flying there is a terrible idea, then that renders it all kinda moot, especially after the events of Moria.

Spoonman wrote:

Because I'm pretty sure a giant eye on a tower would see giant eagles flying right towards him.

1.) Do it at night
2.) Fly low on approach
3.) Bring a LOT of fucking Eagles, mostly ridden by the random soldiers and the likes of Aragorn and Gimli, with Frodo and Sam on one of them towards the back of the formation, with a couple of back up groups specifically there to keep an eye on the Ring carrier and swoop in to help if they do go down.
4.) Blaze in, land right at the mouth of that cave, have the soldiers guard the approach and entrance to the cave, while Frodo runs in and chucks the Ring into the lava.

You could even try a distraction attack on the other side of Mordor, hoping that it would delay the detection of the Eagle brigade even further, but it would be difficult to properly time the two attacks without things like radio.

Cunny wrote:

Or because the ring corrupts everyone who bears it, even Frodo,

Fixed.

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:

Spoonman wrote:

Because I'm pretty sure a giant eye on a tower would see giant eagles flying right towards him.

1.) Do it at night
2.) Fly low on approach
3.) Bring a LOT of fucking Eagles, mostly ridden by the random soldiers and the likes of Aragorn and Gimli, with Frodo and Sam on one of them towards the back of the formation, with a couple of back up groups specifically there to keep an eye on the Ring carrier and swoop in to help if they do go down.
4.) Blaze in, land right at the mouth of that cave, have the soldiers guard the approach and entrance to the cave, while Frodo runs in and chucks the Ring into the lava.

But Star Wars wasn't written then! I'm not even sure if The Dambusters was either...remember that these books predate a lot of modern war films.

It might also be difficult to gather up a bunch of wild animals and coordinate that. As stated, not everyone's best friends with the eagles.

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You could even try a distraction attack on the other side of Mordor, hoping that it would delay the detection of the Eagle brigade even further, but it would be difficult to properly time the two attacks without things like radio.

Also, remember that Mordor has, like, a shit load of soldiers, and even at the end of Return of the King, when Gondor and Rohan (and a load of other places that weren't mentioned in the film - namely Dol Amroth!) had joined their armies together, such an attack was considered suicide. It was hard enough to convince everyone to muster at Pelennor Field when a huge Morgul army was marching on Minas Tirith, so I doubt Gandalf would have been able to do it when Sauron was still busy brooding in his tower while nine wraithy guys search the length and breadth of the land for a guy called Baggins. Remember that most people don't know much at this point.

...you...you weren't supposed to answer the question seriously

i was being facetious

Also! To all those sniggering when the goblin king was on screen. Now learn it was voiced by this guy.

Spoiler:

Yes, Somath, but let's remember that he was also Bruce the shark in Finding Nemo.

"Dwarfs are friends, not food."

Cyberwulf wrote:

...you...you weren't supposed to answer the question seriously

i was being facetious

GO AWAY

Military Strategist Mikey is trying to destroy a fictional evil.

I've got the DVD and just watched it last night. I think I'm mostly with Cyberwulf. When the next movie comes out, I'll be interested in seeing it, but the action sequences were just too cartoony. They make a big fuss about helping Bilbo up after he's hanging by his fingertips to the cliff when the giants have their rock fight. But, why bother? In the Goblin caves, Bilbo shows clearly that he can fall several hundred feet, bouncing off rock, and not even suffer concussion from being knocked out. It seemed silly. All the characters were so durable you didn't feel they were ever in danger.

I did get Bilbo's reasoning for going on the quest. He leads a quiet life, and suddenly it's full of dwarves and wizards, saying they want him for help. He has an evening of their camaraderie then, when he wakes, they're gone. Everything is as it was, but now, instead of safe, his home feels empty, instead of a quiet life, Bilbo sees it as boring. He sees the contract and makes a split-second decision to go. I don't see a problem with how it was portrayed at all.

But, what is it about Peter Jackson and his obsession for having his characters walk in line, going from left to right across the screen? I was bored by it in The Fellowship of the Ring. They're walking across the plain, from left to right! Now, they're walking across the hills, from left to right! Now, they're walking across the mountains, from left to right. Even when Frodo and the gang canoe up the river near the end of LotR:FotR they are doing so from left to right.

And again in this movie. It's usually subtle enough not to be grating, but after they lose the horses there's a bit where they are walking from left to right, through fields. They they are shown on hills and Gandalf looks up at the snowy mountains. Oh, I thought, this must set us up for a walking left to right through the snowy mountains shot. Very next shot is Bilbo and the lads walking left to right through the snowy mountains. It's irritating and takes me right out of the film.

The timeline between this and Lord of the Rings is quite well presented. Frodo, at the beginning is clearly pre-Fellowship. Still a happy, innocent Hobbit. We are told in the smoke ring bit that the translation between Ian Holm/Bilbo and Martin Freeman/Bilbo is '60 years ago'. Given that we don't know how long it takes between this scene and Frodo going away, that's quite a long time for Sauron to gain in power.

And am I the only one who thought, 'It's really nice of the eagles to save them and all, but they are now all trapped several hundred feet up with no observable way down'?

Cyberwulf wrote:

...you...you weren't supposed to answer the question seriously

i was being facetious

But it's fun!

Cunovendus wrote:

Because that might have alerted Sauron to the fact that they were planning to do something, since eagles don't generally hang around there, due to all of the fellbeasts flying around. The idea of the quest was stealth, and to keep Sauron guessing.

The eagles are so fast, by the time word of them being around reaches Sauron it would have been over. Plus yes you can do it at night.

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Or because the ring corrupts everyone who bears it, except for Frodo

Then let the eagles carry Frodo and let him bear it. In the book Sam is able to carry Frodo too without being corrupted. In fact, this is a huge advantage of the plan, because the way the ring is described, it takes time to corrupt your mind. So the faster he gets from home to mount doom, the easier it will be for Frodo to resist.

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Or because Gwaihiir felt that, as Lord of the Eagles, he was above such petty tasks as dropping a bit of metal into a volcano.

It was not above him to fly straight to mount doom just to save two little hobbits.

Oh yeah, fun movie. The bit with Bilbo and Gandalf in the beginning did feel rather telling rather than showing, but besides that I don't remember having a big problem with Bilbo's change of heart. I mean, he's got some sleep, then wakes up to an empty house with the dwarves already gone... I think if I was in his place, I would probably embark on the journey because what if I end up regretting not doing it? It would drive me mad for the rest of my life.

spork wrote:

The eagles are so fast, by the time word of them being around reaches Sauron it would have been over. Plus yes you can do it at night.

The Great Eye would have seen them. Also there are felbeasts flying around, who might have had something to say about it.

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It was not above him to fly straight to mount doom just to save two little hobbits.

That was when they were already at war, and had already made a decision to join the battle. All Gandalf had to say was "the people responsible for ending this are about to die. Will you help me save them?". Before, he'd have had to convince them to take part in a daring aerial assault for the sake of something that they couldn't even see. Again, remember that at this point, little was known about Sauron - he was just "a power brooding in the East" which hadn't been seen for over 2,000 years - there wasn't a news bulletin saying "Breaking News: Isildur's Bane found!! All of Team Good must unite in the coming battle against Team Evil!".

Besides, you can't try to bring modern tactics into a film set in a pseudo-medieval world, and based on a book written in the early 20th century. The eagles are a bunch of animals, not the 101st Flying Tigers - specialist airborne assault squadron created specifically to engage in aerial missions deep behind enemy lines. You can't gather a bunch of them in a briefing room with a schematic and say "your objective is this volcano here, you are to evade detection by the Great Eye, and the felbeasts from the 26th Vipers, who will be flying on close combat patrol, and drop this ring into it...one squawk means 'roger' and two squawks means 'negative', got that?"

Trying to plan something like that with a bunch of eagles would be kind of like trying to organise a wire tap with a bunch of cats.

Cunovendus wrote:

The Great Eye would have seen them.

Well I'm not sure if you're thinking of the "eye" from the book or the lighthouse-like construction they came up with in the movie? The "great eye" is not a literal physical thing in the book, more a sort of magical ESP sight that Sauron has. He might have magically noticed them, especially because the ring attracts his farsight, but with the plan they actually carried out, where they slowly crawled around in close proximity to the black tower, that risk was even greater.

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Also there are felbeasts flying around, who might have had something to say about it.

Do you mean the flying beasts that the nine wraiths ride on? You need to take into account that they didn't ride them yet at the moment the plan was decided on in Rivendel. Or do you mean they are a native species in Mordor?

That is another factor. Before the wraiths were able to fly, there was very little that Sauron could actually do against it, except for quickly sending a guard to mount Doom itself (which would likely be too late).

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he'd have had to convince them to take part in a daring aerial assault for the sake of something that they couldn't even see. Again, remember that at this point, little was known about Sauron

Well the eagles, as far as I remember the book, were described as highly intelligent and aware of history. I think they would have understood the urgency. Sauron had tried before to take over Middle Earth.

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The eagles are a bunch of animals, not the 101st Flying Tigers - specialist airborne assault squadron created specifically to engage in aerial missions deep behind enemy lines.

Lol.. well you may have a point but on the other hand they're no ordinary animals and I think that because of factors above, it seems a very promising and logical plan. The least the writer could have done imo was make someone suggest it and then have someone else come up with a plausible rejection.

spork wrote:

Well I'm not sure if you're thinking of the "eye" from the book or the lighthouse-like construction they came up with in the movie? The "great eye" is not a literal physical thing in the book, more a sort of magical ESP sight that Sauron has.

Either way, a bunch of eagles flying over Mordor is going to attract attention, and unless they can cross the entire country in a matter of seconds, they'd be spotted (they may be fast, but I'm pretty sure they're not that fast).

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Do you mean the flying beasts that the nine wraiths ride on? You need to take into account that they didn't ride them yet at the moment the plan was decided on in Rivendel. Or do you mean they are a native species in Mordor?

Yes, I'm kind of making a leap of logic and assuming that those things are just 'there'. Admittedly it's been a while, but I don't think it canonically states that Sauron specially made nine (and only nine) flying creatures just for the wraiths to ride, so I think it's reasonable to assume that the flying things are as much a part of the Morgul army as the trolls.

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Lol.. well you may have a point but on the other hand they're no ordinary animals and I think that because of factors above, it seems a very promising and logical plan. The least the writer could have done imo was make someone suggest it and then have someone else come up with a plausible rejection.

Perhaps, but again, this was written many years ago - I think much of Tolkien's work was written in the trenches of World War 1, before the concept of aerial missions was a major one. Since aerial warfare was in its infancy at that time, it's likely that the idea simply didn't occur to him, or didn't make the leap and think "Hmm, planes fighting in the air...I wonder if that would work with big birds!". It might seem logical to us now, because we've known about bombing runs, and had films like Star Wars, Memphis Belle and The Dambusters etc, but Tolkien didn't.

Cunovendus wrote:

Either way, a bunch of eagles flying over Mordor is going to attract attention, and unless they can cross the entire country in a matter of seconds, they'd be spotted (they may be fast, but I'm pretty sure they're not that fast).

Well if it is not magical detection but (say) an orc spotting them, the eagles only need to be faster than the orc. The news has to be delivered to Sauron first.

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Yes, I'm kind of making a leap of logic and assuming that those things are just 'there'. Admittedly it's been a while, but I don't think it canonically states that Sauron specially made nine (and only nine) flying creatures just for the wraiths to ride, so I think it's reasonable to assume that the flying things are as much a part of the Morgul army as the trolls.

Well, I didn't remember any description of fell beasts or anything like it, aside of flying mounts for the wraiths, so I looked it up. It turns out they were pretty much made (raised) for it especially, there were no others of their kinds except in myths and slumbering in places far away and so on. wiki

spork wrote:

Well if it is not magical detection but (say) an orc spotting them, the eagles only need to be faster than the orc. The news has to be delivered to Sauron first.

Assuming he's not capable of magical detection (which I still think he is, otherwise why call him "the Great Eye"? - whether it's a physical presence or an abstract concept), the orc just has to get word to Sauron (or whomever he reports to - I actually doubt he'd speak to Sauron himself). The eagle has to cross the orc's entire field of view in that time - big eagles can probably be seen from quite a distance away, and Mordor is quite big. The gates will have watchers at all times, and Minas Morgul would probably have eyes too.

That's why they picked a small party; it was small enough to escape detection. A group of eagles would not be.

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Well, I didn't remember any description of fell beasts or anything like it, aside of flying mounts for the wraiths, so I looked it up. It turns out they were pretty much made (raised) for it especially, there were no others of their kinds except in myths and slumbering in places far away and so on.

The link doesn't state that they were raised specially for that. Only that they were raised by the Dark Lord, and then given to his servant. I don't think timescale really allows for it to be raised from scratch following the drowning of the horses...Frodo spends, what, 6 months at Rivendell? That's a short time to create an entirely new species (although the film did make it look like Saruman grew the Uruk Hais in a matter of days...I doubt that was the case in the book). I think more like it is that they've been there for some time, and were given to the Nazghuls later on, to help them in the fight.

Finally, if the eagles were so eager to help Team Good and aid in the struggles of humankind, where were they when Minas Tirith was besieged?

Anyway, I thought this was meant to be about The Hobbit!! Do you see what you have started???