Soooo..."Bioshock Infinite".

Psy-4 wrote:

You can still say that it was internet sarcasm and ironic posting that nobody got, and all will be forgiven.

Kay, I'll go with that.

Psy-4 wrote:

You can still say that it was internet sarcasm and ironic posting that nobody got, and all will be forgiven.

That only works inside your head. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hadiya, don't be discouraged. Every thread has the potential for drama--some more than others. I started a thread about stem cell therapy and it turned into an argument about foreskin restoration. XD But when you've got politics and gender issues in the same thread, it's sort of inevitable that there'll be some kind of fight.

Gender issues especially. That can's been opened so many times the worms are suing for harassment.

I don't even have a problem with male protagonists because most of them are such a blank slate you can project yourself onto them or just "replace" yourself with them, ex: Gordon Freeman. I'm pretty sure the only reason his gender is mentioned is because it make writing dialog easier.

Women are slowly being represented pretty well in games, actually! Slow progress, but its getting there.

Missed this the first time:

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

At least they restrained from making a preexisting strong woman a woobie, though (I'm looking at you, Other M).

Visit the Other M thread to find out why saying this makes you stupid. (Hint: "one-dimensional" =/= "strong")

TheHermit wrote:

Missed this the first time:

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

At least they restrained from making a preexisting strong woman a woobie, though (I'm looking at you, Other M).

Visit the Other M thread to find out why saying this makes you stupid. (Hint: "one-dimensional" =/= "strong")

Given how she missed all the politics being bluntly blathered at the player in Andrew Ryan's intro speech here:



The entire Other M debate should fly right over her head. Hell, the fact that she's completely confused the politics of the Tea Party as being more closely related to Infinite than Bioshock 1 says enough right there.

Gee thanks, Penguin. I love that you assume I have the intelligence level of a vegetable, have had no schooling beyond elementary school, have no knowledge of politics, and have no powers of observation.

-Wow, gee, I didn't realize that there was a political message in the first two Bioshocks, Penguin, because I've obviously lived my whole life with my head shoved up my ass. The only reason I'm ribbing on Infinite is that, in my opinion, it's a lot more blatant, in your face, and anvil-on-the-head than Bioshock. At least Rapture had an atmosphere other than its politics (and yes, I listened to all of the diaries, heard all of the propaganda messages, and read all of the signs around Rapture. I simply think that Infinite is a LOT less subtle).

-I've taken history, Penguin, and as a Women's Studies major (OHNOEZ MAJOR FEMINAZI) I am concerned with all forms of oppression and their origins. I know very well about the 1900s, the social conditions of the time, and the naturalist and racist sentiments of the era. I'm not stupid; I've taken AP US History and like to educate myself on these matters. My connection with the Tea Party stems entirely with connecting the past with, gasp, THE PRESENT. Because I highly doubt that the average gamer is entirely aware of the politics of the 1920s, so it's my opinion that 2K is using such sentiments as a blatant connection with modern day politics, something every American has some vague knowledge of, at least.

-I'm not getting into an Other M debate in this thread, but I still think it's sexist, and have a right to my own opinion.

-I also realize that having superpowers would most likely drain one's abilities, but I also notice that it's mainly superpowered WOMEN in media that trip and bleed and pass and faint from such abilities, and am sick of my gender being seen as feeble and whimpy while the men power on ahead (and yes, I KNOW there are exceptions to this trend).

-Finally, I realize that there are strong female protagonists in video games (Zoey is my favorite character in Left 4 Dead, by the way), but they are exceptions to the norm, and (as in the case with Left 4 Dead), they are often times the only woman in a group of men, which are as blatant examples of tokenism as I've ever come across. And yes, tokenism doesn't equal full representation.

I doubt I will change your opinion, Penguin, but I hope that this will at least let you see that I'm not comatose and living under a rock.

Also, I still think Bioshock Infinite is over the top and silly.

Video game with male protagonist --->PATRIARCHY WANK
See, most people would at least try to put something in between, but WGW goes zero-to-sixty on the drama scale in approximately four seconds.
...Don't ever change.

I'm still having trouble parsing what your problem is. You're still judging an entire game's premise by a trailer. Which is okay to do when you can look at something and say: "Wow this has shitty graphics" or "holy crap this voice acting is shit", but you're annoyed at the trailer showing highlights of a game.

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The only reason I'm ribbing on Infinite is that, in my opinion, it's a lot more blatant, in your face, and anvil-on-the-head than Bioshock.

Like the game's not even out yet and you've decided how they're going to handle the political message. And I still disagree with you assessment of Bioshock being even the least bit subtle in its message.

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but I also notice that it's mainly superpowered WOMEN in media that trip and bleed and pass and faint from such abilities, and am sick of my gender being seen s feeble and useless.

She...she can use plasmids...That's like incredibly helpful but the fact there's consequences for using them is bad because the character is female? I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're claiming here; Its been long established that plasmids cause people to suffer and get sick. Would you have preferred it been two male protagonists or that there's be no consequences for the plasmid use or some sort of other consequence or what?

The last time I looked, people judge movies on their trailers all of the time, so why can't I do so for a game? Will the internet police arrest me or something?

I also concede to your point about the plasmids, but why couldn't she have been a strong female character that uses fewer plasmids? You don't see the hero coughing blood and panting. Why does she have to be some traditional female Deus ex Machina? That's just my opinion, but it's a bit of a recurring annoying trend at work here.

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The last time I looked, people judge movies on their trailers all of the time, so why can't I do so for a game? Will the internet police arrest me or something?

Just...it's okay. Calm down you're allowed to have an opinion on something, but it's usually considered a more valid opinion when you're familiar with what you're talking about. I'm referring exclusive to the game with that previous statement, not the women's studies etc.

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I also concede to your point about the plasmids, but why couldn't she have been a strong female character that uses fewer plasmids? You don't see the hero coughing blood and panting. Why does she have to be some traditional female Deus ex Machina? That's just my opinion, but it's a bit of a recurring annoying trend at work here.

It's possible there could have been a game balance issue or something that lead to these pretty unfortunate implications. We still don't really know enough about the game to know for sure!

/bioshock apologist

Man, even on the internet people assume I'm not being calm. ::laughs:: I understand where you're coming from, and I will definitely have a more accurate opinion of Infinite when I can play it. These are simply my initial thoughts. I was (okay, still am) just a bit irate because it seems like others in the thread (not you) are/were assuming that I'm the world's biggest dumbass. Thanks for being so cool about it, though.

Yeah, I tend to apologize for Bioshock a lot myself (I mean, when a game series is THIS freaking awesome...). Very well; I will keep my hopes up until I have the game in a console and the controller in my hands.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

Gee thanks, Penguin. I love that you assume I have the intelligence level of a vegetable, have had no schooling beyond elementary school, have no knowledge of politics, and have no powers of observation.

Well, when miss the point so badly you hit something in the other state...

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-Wow, gee, I didn't realize that there was a political message in the first two Bioshocks, Penguin, because I've obviously lived my whole life with my head shoved up my ass. The only reason I'm ribbing on Infinite is that, in my opinion, it's a lot more blatant, in your face, and anvil-on-the-head than Bioshock.

How so? Columbia has billboards and bunting. Rapture has tapestries with Ryan's objectivist slogans, PA systems repeating them aloud, and posters all over the place.

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At least Rapture had an atmosphere other than its politics (and yes, I listened to all of the diaries, heard all of the propaganda messages, and read all of the signs around Rapture. I simply think that Infinite is a LOT less subtle).

Bioshock: Undersea steampunkish atmosphere with sci-fi magic and heavy-handed politics.
Infinite: Airborne steampunkish atmosphere with sci-fi magic and heavy-handed politics.

Also, I'm re-watching the trailer now. That bottle you objected to for looking like an eagle? It's a crow. It gives you the power to control... crows.

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-I've taken history, Penguin, and as a Women's Studies major (OHNOEZ MAJOR FEMINAZI) I am concerned with all forms of oppression and their origins. I know very well about the 1900s, the social conditions of the time, and the naturalist and racist sentiments of the era. I'm not stupid; I've taken AP US History and like to educate myself on these matters. My connection with the Tea Party stems entirely with connecting the past with, gasp, THE PRESENT. Because I highly doubt that the average gamer is entirely aware of the politics of the 1920s, so it's my opinion that 2K is using such sentiments as a blatant connection with modern day politics, something every American has some vague knowledge of, at least.

Okay, so you've punched some tickets and have some grasp of the time period... so what, then, is the problem? Are you offended by the very concept of an allegory, or is the mere presence of these political views wielded by the antagonists offensive to you? In the first Bioshock, Andrew Ryan's fanatical objectivism was shown to be hypocritical folly. Do you think they'd treat xenophobia and racism any differently in Infinite?

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-I'm not getting into an Other M debate in this thread, but I still think it's sexist, and have a right to my own opinion.

And I won't get into it here because the Other M thread is still alive and frigging huge. I'm pretty sure I've said all I can relevantly say about it there.

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-I also realize that having superpowers would most likely drain one's abilities, but I also notice that it's mainly superpowered WOMEN in media that trip and bleed and pass and faint from such abilities, and am sick of my gender being seen as feeble and whimpy while the men power on ahead (and yes, I KNOW there are exceptions to this trend).

In this case, I think you're putting the collective sins of the mass media at the feet of a video game. The problem with games is that they require balance. Otherwise there's no challenge. If you're teamed up with someone who shoots tactical nukes from her eyes, and you're just some guy with a couple guns and some powers that pale in comparison, there'd be nothing left for you to do while the NPC does everything. At that point, you're not playing a game, you're watching a movie. One without any tension, and even pretty explosions get old.

So, a character who finds the use of his or her powers to be draining and can only use them so often so that the player can continue to have an effect on what's going on in the game. But if the NPC merely complains of fatigue or states that they need to reload their mind bullets, it comes off like they're not even trying, and if their survival in the down time depends on the player, they're merely an irritating burden.

If the character shows signs of actually needing help while they can't use their powers, it not only humanizes them, but gives the player a very strong signal that yes, this person actually needs the protection, they're not just expecting the player to do all the work when they can't be bothered to show off their magic tricks. Basically, having them hobble a long after doing the impossible is a quick way to give the player a reason to give a shit.

In this case, we see Elizabeth summon a storm that blankets the whole city. I think she's entitled to be a little winded after that.

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-Finally, I realize that there are strong female protagonists in video games (Zoey is my favorite character in Left 4 Dead, by the way), but they are exceptions to the norm, and (as in the case with Left 4 Dead), they are often times the only woman in a group of men, which are as blatant examples of tokenism as I've ever come across. And yes, tokenism doesn't equal full representation.

There's actually a plot reason for why there are so fewer uninfected women than men in L4D, but since that's part of an official comic with rather lame art, I'll concede the point since it's not actually told in-game yet.

SlyChild wrote:

Video game with male protagonist --->PATRIARCHY WANK
See, most people would at least try to put something in between, but WGW goes zero-to-sixty on the drama scale in approximately four seconds.
...Don't ever change.

When I'm involved, it's like a shot of fucking Nitro.

Mafiosa wrote:

Quote :

The only reason I'm ribbing on Infinite is that, in my opinion, it's a lot more blatant, in your face, and anvil-on-the-head than Bioshock.

Like the game's not even out yet and you've decided how they're going to handle the political message. And I still disagree with you assessment of Bioshock being even the least bit subtle in its message.

She did say more anvil-on-the-head, but she's still wrong. The amount of blatancy is the same in all Bioshocks, it's just expressed differently. Rapture is the one that wants to be left alone, and does not want to display the jingoistic propaganda from Columbia... for free, anyway, they would rather charge people to watch propaganda, it's called Ryan's Amusements. (know everything you need to know about the Parasite, entry fee $19.99)

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

Gee thanks, Penguin. I love that you assume I have the intelligence level of a vegetable, have had no schooling beyond elementary school, have no knowledge of politics, and have no powers of observation.

Besides the schooling part, everything else was demonstrated. Like this.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

-I'm not getting into an Other M debate in this thread, but I still think it's sexist, and have a right to my own opinion.

Thank fuck we have a thread dedicated specifically to Other M, right? Also, having an opinion is fine, but yours is based in shit logic and reasoning.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

At least Rapture had an atmosphere other than its politics.

I am claustrophobic instead of acrophobic, therefore it's bad.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

-I've taken history, Penguin, and as a Women's Studies major (OHNOEZ MAJOR FEMINAZI)

Before I insult your major as useless, please list all the jobs you had related to your major and how they relate.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

-Finally, I realize that there are strong female protagonists in video games (Zoey is my favorite character in Left 4 Dead, by the way), but they are exceptions to the norm, and (as in the case with Left 4 Dead), they are often times the only woman in a group of men, which are as blatant examples of tokenism as I've ever come across.

A gamer chick, an old fart war vet, a black office worker, a tattooed biker ruffian. If you sacrifice all these tokens, you can summon something pretty powerful.

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

And yes, tokenism doesn't equal full representation.

Psy-4 wrote:

I will ignore the unfortunate implication that men are so removed from women, that a woman can only identify with a character if they are also a woman.

Yes, please tell us more about how men cannot represent women. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Before I insult your major as useless, please list all the jobs you had related to your major and how they relate.

this just in everyone you can't have an opinion on videogames without proving your worth as a member of society

psy-4 how about your jobs, buddy, last time i talked to you you couldn't even scrape together 10 bux for an sa account

Mafiosa wrote:

this just in everyone you can't have an opinion on videogames without proving your worth as a member of society

What? Where did you get that from? I just wanted to insult a major. But wouldn't it be embarrassing if she actually did hold a job related to her field? Gotta avoid that. You're overthinking this.

Mafiosa wrote:

psy-4 how about your jobs, buddy, last time i talked to you you couldn't even scrape together 10 bux for an sa account

When was that?

Let's also not forget that plenty of female gamers like their male protagonists. I mean, jesus, do any female L4D2 players actually care about Rochelle instead of 'shipping Nick/Ellis?

Of course, it would be skewed at best to say this is an absolute. I'd like to see some actual statistics gathered on the idea. Bioware's Mass Effect 2 stats were interesting...I suspect ME has quite a lot of girl gamers, and if so, quite a lot of them play male Shepards.

Also, Bioshock Infinate plot-points revealed no-one else here has caught: Columbia is no secret. It's the American Dream on baloons, built as a shining example of American Awesomeness as a floating ambassador to convey said Awesomeness all across the world (this means that in the setting, convienient air travel may otherwise exist as wel.) What no one responsible for it mentions is that it's also armed to the teeth. This little secret Goes Horribly Wrong (they're mum on exactly how yet) and then the city vanishes into the clouds for several years,

Psy-4 wrote:

Mafiosa wrote:

this just in everyone you can't have an opinion on videogames without proving your worth as a member of society

What? Where did you get that from? I just wanted to insult a major. But wouldn't it be embarrassing if she actually did hold a job related to her field? Gotta avoid that. You're overthinking this.

Mafiosa wrote:

psy-4 how about your jobs, buddy, last time i talked to you you couldn't even scrape together 10 bux for an sa account

When was that?

oh don't play dumb

and no you were trying to ad hom the shit out of this argument

Hadiya Tannous wrote:

The last time I looked, people judge movies on their trailers all of the time, so why can't I do so for a game? Will the internet police arrest me or something?

If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Sorry, couldn't resist.

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I also concede to your point about the plasmids, but why couldn't she have been a strong female character that uses fewer plasmids? You don't see the hero coughing blood and panting. Why does she have to be some traditional female Deus ex Machina? That's just my opinion, but it's a bit of a recurring annoying trend at work here.

Assuming they're plasmids to begin with. We saw that in Bioshock, repeated splicing does terrible, terrible damage to your body. Is it much of a surprise that a human being kept in a crazy city against her will might have had some experimental super-science done to her that results in some sort of medical problems?

Mafiosa wrote:

oh don't play dumb

and no you were trying to ad hom the shit out of this argument

Yes, because I am known for using Ad Hominem as an argument. As opposed to just being a dick.

Alhazred wrote:

Of course, it would be skewed at best to say this is an absolute. I'd like to see some actual statistics gathered on the idea. Bioware's Mass Effect 2 stats were interesting...I suspect ME has quite a lot of girl gamers, and if so, quite a lot of them play male Shepards.

I'm guessing they wanted to be gay for Garrus, but didn't want to restart the game after they found out the truth.

Just like your parents wanted you to be a fine, upstanding member of society and didn't want to have sex again when they realized they'd failed and then looked at each other?