Join date : 2009-06-03 Age : 33 Location : The Land of Strangeness
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:22 pm
Dr. Professor Science wrote:
theweirdkind wrote:
Dr. Professor Science wrote:
And completely irrelevant to that and not contributing to the discussion, I wanted to show you all this.
Doc, please read before you post. If you went through the past page or so, you would've seen that I already posted this.
Oh yeah? Well, you need to stop posting the links I show you before I do.
You snooze you lose.
Psy-4 Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Join date : 2009-06-10
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:23 pm
And here I thought it was all about love being a key to happiness and an emotion you should pursue. Well, shit.
It is clear that how strong a woman is is defined by how much she detests the idea of having a relationship with the opposite gender.
Somath Cegem Wonderfully English
Join date : 2009-06-10 Age : 37 Location : Land of Burning Spirit
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:27 pm
Cyberwulf wrote:
Somath Cegem wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Somath Cegem wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Eowyn was ahead of her time, but even she was married off at the end.
Yes, Killing off the second biggest fuck in the book and then snagging herself a man who loves her after maturely moving on from her crush of Arogorn, such a bad bad thing.
*facepalm*
You don't understand at all, do you? Even in stories that are supposedly about women and for women, the best outcome for a woman is always, ALWAYS, landing herself a nice man because she's incomplete without one. Doesn't matter what else she's got going for her, without a man her life is empty and hollow. It's not just Eowyn, it's a depressing number of female protagonists.
There's no point even trying to explain this, is there?
Considering I genuinely believe having a partner is an admirable goal in life, maybe not marriage but getting to know somebody that well, yeah, it's an enviable thing from my view. Maybe you think the media over does it but having a story end with "And they lived together and were happy for the rest of their days" is a nice round up that's been done for eons. Complaining about 1 dimensional women who exist as only as love interests/who only want to be married. Fine. Complaining about seemingly well rounded characters who loose all substance when they marry. Fine Complaining when a character gets married when it's actually half decently thought out. Bugger off. Thousand of people get married every week, It's something we can relate to, definite sign of commitment between to characters we can all recognise, whining about any and all uses of it in media is not just silly it's borderline mental.
Cyberwulf NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date : 2009-06-03 Age : 42 Location : TRILOBITE!
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:41 pm
Somath Cegem wrote:
Considering I genuinely believe having a partner is an admirable goal in life, maybe not marriage but getting to know somebody that well, yeah, it's an enviable thing from my view. Maybe you think the media over does it but having a story end with "And they lived together and were happy for the rest of their days" is a nice round up that's been done for eons. Complaining about 1 dimensional women who exist as only as love interests/who only want to be married. Fine. Complaining about seemingly well rounded characters who loose all substance when they marry. Fine Complaining when a character gets married when it's actually half decently thought out. Bugger off. Thousand of people get married every week, It's something we can relate to, definite sign of commitment between to characters we can all recognise, whining about any and all uses of it in media is not just silly it's borderline mental.
Yep, I was right. Waste of fucking time.
Keith Fraser Shitgobbling pissdrinker
Join date : 2009-06-11 Age : 41 Location : The Emerald Isle
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:00 pm
Somath: I think Cyberwulf's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ALL women in movies tend to end up married/partnered at the end, whereas only some men do. In LotR, for example, all the major female characters marry someone at the end or were already married. Of the Fellowship alone, Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin are all unattached at the end (Merry and Pippin have wives mentioned in the appendices, but that doesn't come up in the actual story).
I think a lot of this, frankly, is because most action/war/etc. movies will tend to have more male than female characters, ergo it's easier to pair off all the women and only some of the men. It is true, though, that a woman being left alive and unpaired at the end of a movie is not that common, relatively speaking. (Exceptions include Ripley from Alien.)
unskilled78 Sporkbender
Join date : 2009-06-03 Age : 34 Location : a hell of his own creation.
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:03 pm
Cyberwulf wrote:
Spoiler:
Somath Cegem wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Somath Cegem wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Eowyn was ahead of her time, but even she was married off at the end.
Yes, Killing off the second biggest fuck in the book and then snagging herself a man who loves her after maturely moving on from her crush of Arogorn, such a bad bad thing.
*facepalm*
You don't understand at all, do you? Even in stories that are supposedly about women and for women, the best outcome for a woman is always, ALWAYS, landing herself a nice man because she's incomplete without one. Doesn't matter what else she's got going for her, without a man her life is empty and hollow. It's not just Eowyn, it's a depressing number of female protagonists.
There's no point even trying to explain this, is there?
If you can't even scream down one surly but reasonable Engish gent, what hope do you have of setting up vagino-martial law over the world? Some Straw-feminist You turned out to be.
Jay/Cris The Word Police
Join date : 2009-06-10 Age : 36 Location : A´dam.
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:38 pm
Cyberwulf wrote:
Somath Cegem wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Eowyn was ahead of her time, but even she was married off at the end.
Yes, Killing off the second biggest fuck in the book and then snagging herself a man who loves her after maturely moving on from her crush of Arogorn, such a bad bad thing.
*facepalm*
You don't understand at all, do you? Even in stories that are supposedly about women and for women, the best outcome for a woman is always, ALWAYS, landing herself a nice man because she's incomplete without one. Doesn't matter what else she's got going for her, without a man her life is empty and hollow. It's not just Eowyn, it's a depressing number of female protagonists.
I do think you have a point here, but most 'mainstream' movies that have a male lead and a somewhat important romantic side-plot also end with the man paired off. Society's obsession with love and all that. It's disconcerting, however, that 'chick-flicks' traditionally have the romance as the main plot, while in movies aimed at men (or both genders) the romance gets tied into a bigger narrative and serves a sub-plot.
Keith Fraser Shitgobbling pissdrinker
Join date : 2009-06-11 Age : 41 Location : The Emerald Isle
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:48 pm
Jay/Cris wrote:
I do think you have a point here, but most 'mainstream' movies that have a male lead and a somewhat important romantic side-plot also end with the man paired off. Society's obsession with love and all that. It's disconcerting, however, that 'chick-flicks' traditionally have the romance as the main plot, while in movies aimed at men (or both genders) the romance gets tied into a bigger narrative and serves a sub-plot.
I think that's because it's perceived that women are more interested in stories about romance and relationships in general. Are there any action movies clearly aimed at women, or romance movies clearly aimed at men? There are certainly anime examples for the former at the very least, but the latter is trickier. Some of Woody Allen's movies might qualify.
Mafiosa You crack me up, little buddy!
Join date : 2009-06-03
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:49 pm
Keith Fraser wrote:
Jay/Cris wrote:
I do think you have a point here, but most 'mainstream' movies that have a male lead and a somewhat important romantic side-plot also end with the man paired off. Society's obsession with love and all that. It's disconcerting, however, that 'chick-flicks' traditionally have the romance as the main plot, while in movies aimed at men (or both genders) the romance gets tied into a bigger narrative and serves a sub-plot.
I think that's because it's perceived that women are more interested in stories about romance and relationships in general. Are there any action movies clearly aimed at women, or romance movies clearly aimed at men? There are certainly anime examples for the former at the very least, but the latter is trickier. Some of Woody Allen's movies might qualify.
What about any of Judd Apatow's movies?
frostflowers Sporkbender
Join date : 2009-10-20 Location : The comics bunker
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:21 am
Keith Fraser wrote:
Somath: I think Cyberwulf's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that ALL women in movies tend to end up married/partnered at the end, whereas only some men do. In LotR, for example, all the major female characters marry someone at the end or were already married. Of the Fellowship alone, Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin are all unattached at the end (Merry and Pippin have wives mentioned in the appendices, but that doesn't come up in the actual story).
To follow up on this point, it is depressing to see that so often, marriage is an end, that big final goal at which there is no more story to tell, rather than have marriage/stable relationship as a partway goal, and the move on with more story.
As far as the dramatic curve goes, marriage might be a good place to wrap things up at, but it doesn't have to be; and I've seen "marriage = perfect happiness" far too often to be really happy with it.
.../two cents.
Sheba Shitgobbling pissdrinker
Join date : 2009-06-10 Age : 36
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:56 am
Keith Fraser wrote:
Jay/Cris wrote:
I do think you have a point here, but most 'mainstream' movies that have a male lead and a somewhat important romantic side-plot also end with the man paired off. Society's obsession with love and all that. It's disconcerting, however, that 'chick-flicks' traditionally have the romance as the main plot, while in movies aimed at men (or both genders) the romance gets tied into a bigger narrative and serves a sub-plot.
I think that's because it's perceived that women are more interested in stories about romance and relationships in general. Are there any action movies clearly aimed at women
"Zombie-killing time. Hold my Tampax."
Sarin Sporkbender
Join date : 2009-12-02 Age : 38 Location : The world's political arsehole.
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:33 am
Somath Cegem wrote:
I think I can answer that easily, how many men do you think there are that are pathetic enough to buy female action figures just cause they are sexualised. Now, how many women do you think there are that are pathetic enough to buy male action figures just cause they are sexualised. I'm willing to bet the ratio is massively gender skewed to the male side.
It's not a matter of which side is more pathetic - action figures just don't tend to be marketed towards women's ways of justifying the purchase to themselves. Replace "action figures" with "posters" and you'll find that both sexes are equally pathetic when it comes to buying highly sexualized things.
Cyberwulf wrote:
Even in stories that are supposedly about women and for women, the best outcome for a woman is always, ALWAYS, landing herself a nice man because she's incomplete without one. Doesn't matter what else she's got going for her, without a man her life is empty and hollow. It's not just Eowyn, it's a depressing number of female protagonists.
Agreed, especially because this effect is never, ever seen with the genders reversed. Getting the girl is never a major part of movies and books by men, for men, and isn't important to the male protagonist's ego or sense of self-worth.
Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date : 2009-07-18 Location : Wild Gray Yonder
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:08 pm
Usually whenever I ask dudes WTF they're doing reading Twilight, it's either:
1.) Intel, gotta know what the chicks are after 2.) They're easily impressed by anyone with superpowers. Yes, I've heard "Edward is badass" as a defense of the novels.
Psy-4 Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Join date : 2009-06-10
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:03 pm
Penguin wrote:
Usually whenever I ask dudes WTF they're doing reading Twilight, it's either:
1.) Intel, gotta know what the chicks are after
The chicks that are after Twilight are at most good for a one night stand. And that's only some of them. The rest you don't even want to come near.
Penguin wrote:
2.) They're easily impressed by anyone with superpowers. Yes, I've heard "Edward is badass" as a defense of the novels.
U.S. Army! We have weeping pussies.
'Scuze me. I need to go watch something ridiculous and manly.
Cyberwulf NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date : 2009-06-03 Age : 42 Location : TRILOBITE!
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:30 pm
Sarin wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Even in stories that are supposedly about women and for women, the best outcome for a woman is always, ALWAYS, landing herself a nice man because she's incomplete without one. Doesn't matter what else she's got going for her, without a man her life is empty and hollow. It's not just Eowyn, it's a depressing number of female protagonists.
Agreed, especially because this effect is never, ever seen with the genders reversed. Getting the girl is never a major part of movies and books by men, for men, and isn't important to the male protagonist's ego or sense of self-worth.
Actually (Judd Apatow movies aside, and I'll get to them in a minute), in most movies where there's a male hero/protagonist, he also has another goal to achieve - usually stopping the bad guy. Getting the girl is a consequence of proving himself a hero, but the two are only tangentally related. It's comparatively rare to see a male hero whose sole purpose is to get a girl to complete himself. Not to mention at least for male heroes, both scenarios are fairly common, whereas with female heroines, only one is.
Apatovian movies are the best example of stories where the male protagonist needs a girlfriend/wife to "complete" him and finally move him from being an overgrown boy to a man. But the girlfriend/wife is treated as a talisman that makes this happen overnight, and the female characters tend to be treated as sex objects or nagging scolds. The protagonists also tend to be stereotypical slackers/losers and have nothing else much going on in their lives, until Mommy Girlfriend magically fixes everything. Contrast to female protagonists who often have careers, friends and behave like grown-ups, yet it's all worthless without a nice penis to ride.
Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date : 2009-07-18 Location : Wild Gray Yonder
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:25 pm
Psy-4 wrote:
Penguin wrote:
Usually whenever I ask dudes WTF they're doing reading Twilight, it's either:
1.) Intel, gotta know what the chicks are after
The chicks that are after Twilight are at most good for a one night stand. And that's only some of them. The rest you don't even want to come near.
Yeah, and? These are military men we're talking about. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Sparrow Sporkbender
Join date : 2009-06-10 Age : 38 Location : West Peoria, IL
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:45 pm
The Oatmeal: How Twilight Works
Lexin Sporkbender
Join date : 2009-06-11 Age : 61 Location : London
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:58 pm
One of the HR ladies at work was telling me today about how much she loves the Twilight series. I kept a fixed smile and backed away, making no sudden moves.
Jocelyn
Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : Orlando, FL
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 pm
Sparrow wrote:
The Oatmeal: How Twilight Works
*sporfle!* A good friend of mine has gone by the nickname "Pants" for years - a guy, at that. I'm soooo posting this on his Facebook! He'll have a fit!
Seule My Mescaline
Join date : 2009-06-11 Age : 31 Location : Tea & Castle Land
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:05 pm
I lol'd.
(There are two more parts so far as well)
Lysander Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Join date : 2009-06-10
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:55 pm
myeerah wrote:
Tangentially related: Twilight backlash is sexist.
After reading, I begin to think that the author has a point.
Look. I may have had a shitty month, but as a guy who's actually read the Twilight series, I can't let this slide.
1) Bella doesn't need to be objectified to be insulting to women. Any less personality, and she'd be a fucking object. The only way to connect with Bella at all is to project yourself into her place. She's actually too shallow to properly objectify.
2) The reason why people keep referring to the Twilighters as insane shrieking children is that they are by and large insane shrieking children, except for the insane shrieking women and a few insane shrieking boys who are probably trying to score with a member of the first.
3) The books are essentially about the caveman gender politics of a sheltered Mormon housewife who refuses to publish her work when her fans affect her delicate, womanly feelings.
4) Twilight objectifies men. Go and watch New Moon if you don't believe me. It's a Cinemax titty flick with man-abs inserted in place of breasts. Twilight itself is an example of the exact same sexist filth that's usually directed at women being directed at men. Meanwhile, this moron is trying to figure out why we hate it so much.
5) The difference between Twilight and Marvel Comics is that most people who read Marvel object to the sexism on some level and comics are at least trying to improve. Twilight is just one big regression in gender relations.
Antidote to this bullshit article: comedians troll Twilight fans; yes, this sort of thing also happened to Harry Potter fans all the time, shut up.
Maximilia My spoon is too big.
Join date : 2009-06-10 Age : 50 Location : South Dakota
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:44 pm
Hee! That was good, Lysander.
Jocelyn
Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : Orlando, FL
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:23 pm
Lysander wrote:
myeerah wrote:
Tangentially related: Twilight backlash is sexist.
After reading, I begin to think that the author has a point.
Look. I may have had a shitty month, but as a guy who's actually read the Twilight series, I can't let this slide.
1) Bella doesn't need to be objectified to be insulting to women. Any less personality, and she'd be a fucking object. The only way to connect with Bella at all is to project yourself into her place. She's actually too shallow to properly objectify.
2) The reason why people keep referring to the Twilighters as insane shrieking children is that they are by and large insane shrieking children, except for the insane shrieking women and a few insane shrieking boys who are probably trying to score with a member of the first.
3) The books are essentially about the caveman gender politics of a sheltered Mormon housewife who refuses to publish her work when her fans affect her delicate, womanly feelings.
4) Twilight objectifies men. Go and watch New Moon if you don't believe me. It's a Cinemax titty flick with man-abs inserted in place of breasts. Twilight itself is an example of the exact same sexist filth that's usually directed at women being directed at men. Meanwhile, this moron is trying to figure out why we hate it so much.
5) The difference between Twilight and Marvel Comics is that most people who read Marvel object to the sexism on some level and comics are at least trying to improve. Twilight is just one big regression in gender relations.
Antidote to this bullshit article: comedians troll Twilight fans; yes, this sort of thing also happened to Harry Potter fans all the time, shut up.
Eh, just retitle the article: "Another Whiny Twihard Whines That The Haters Are Meeeeeeean!"
I don't think the author has a point (and this from a woman who has read the series, albeit not in order) - she's just grousing that "well *I* like it and you're meeean if you don't!"
Spooky
Join date : 2009-11-15 Location : Tied to a chair in a run-down porn cinema in Huddersfield.
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:53 am
Lysander wrote:
4) Twilight objectifies men. Go and watch New Moon if you don't believe me. It's a Cinemax titty flick with man-abs inserted in place of breasts. Twilight itself is an example of the exact same sexist filth that's usually directed at women being directed at men. Meanwhile, this moron is trying to figure out why we hate it so much.
See, I agree with everything else you said, but this: objectifying men is not the same as objectifying women. Two reasons: firstly women do not have the societal power to discriminate the way men do, secondly because of this, the 'objectified' men in Twilight have much more agency, power and depth than the bland female characters. All of the acting - of which there is little - in these films is done by the men and the female characters react. So, they aren't 'objects' in the classic sense, the way say the stock action movie girlfriend is.
While everything else about Twilight is incurably backwards, presenting men as sexual objects for the entertainment of women is - in a very simple, that-didn't-take-much-brainpower kind of way - subversive. So, while not all criticism of Twilight is sexist, and most isn't, because lets's face it those books/movies sucked, some of the backlash against Twilight is a reaction against the idea that men can ever be the objects rather than the posessors of sexual gaze, and that does come from a sexist place.
Myself, I know the movies sucked, but I'm kind of glad they got made and were successful, the same as with Sex and the City etc. Anything that is a step towards showing moviemakers that women do go to movies and would like some films not solely aimed at men please is a good step.
Lysander Armbiter of Good Fanfiction
Join date : 2009-06-10
Subject: Re: Twilight: The Death of Feminism Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:16 am
Spooky wrote:
Two reasons: firstly women do not have the societal power to discriminate the way men do, secondly because of this, the 'objectified' men in Twilight have much more agency, power and depth than the bland female characters.
I can't really argue the first one, but the others are all wrong.
The male protagonists don't really drive events in Twilight. I really wish they did, because then at least somebody would be. Events don't really occur very often in this series. Shit happening is apparently not the point of the books. By the time the plot deigns to arrive, they're already halfway over and nobody sane gives a shit anymore.
Bella becomes a blatant power-tripping Godmode Sue in Breaking Dawn. Until then, she can make due with having every man who lays eyes on her obey her slightest whim like a commandment from God.
And depth? No. All the main characters are equal in that they have one personality trait. Bella's a thinly disguised thirty-five year old undersexed Mormon housefrau, Edward has his fucked-up sexuality as composed by someone who doesn't have the first clue about men, and Jacob's got a crippling case of "nice guy syndrome." Aside from that, there really isn't very much to them as people.
The only way you could possibly argue that Twilight isn't sexist is to say that it hates both sexes equally. I might buy that.
Quote :
While everything else about Twilight is incurably backwards, presenting men as sexual objects for the entertainment of women is - in a very simple, that-didn't-take-much-brainpower kind of way - subversive.
I wouldn't say that it subverts objectification, so much as it indulges in it. It's clearly not out to make some sort of feminist statement. Even if it was, it's completely ineffectual at teaching men not to objectify women or teaching women not to tolerate it.
New Moon as a movie is a skin flick, plain and simple. It's no different than anything Milla Jovovich has ever starred in, save that it's not rated R and I actually paid attention to the rare parts of the film where people were wearing shirts.
If there is any backlash related to it being "girl's stuff", then it's insignificant compared to the backlash generated by the shitty source material, the rape of a century's accumulated monster lore by a talentless hack, and the batshit fandom insisting that it's the greatest romantic film of all time (because FUCK Casablanca, man).