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 So, this whole "gamergate" thing

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Reepicheep-chan
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:57 pm

Knorg wrote:
And gaming journos have been agreeably corrupt for years. It's part of their charm!
Oh God I know right? I do not see how anyone can believe this line about gamergate being in any way related to ethics in journalism. If that were true people would be as familiar with the names of the game journalist who supposedly gave good review in exchange for sex as they are with Quinn. Who were they, anyway? I sure as fuck cannot remember. What journals? I think Kotaku might have been on the block but I have barely heard anything about it while I have heard "Zoe Quinn is a huge fucking slut" like a million times now. And why is this a thing now and specifically in response to feminist critique in reporting when game journalists have been taking ad money from the same companies they review for years and years? When major game companies have actually pulled ad money for bad reviews before? I mean, you actually believe that the fact some reviews are buddy-buddy with some indie developers is a bigger issue? Gatergate is prioritizing an issue that affects thousands of dollars over one that affects millions here, it is completely fucking nuts.

I have gamed since literally as long as I can remember and I am well aware that game journos are totally fucking shit and I say gamergate is a garbage pile made up of equal parts sociopathic assholes and the painfully naive. I have not always agreed with every feminist crit of a game either, but I support every person's right to crit games w/r/t social issues without being harassed, threatened, and silenced.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:29 pm

I think the only reason GG has had so much traction is that a lot of gamers are justifiably frustrated with a lot of problems in the industry (like the infamous Kane & Lynch review, everything EA's done in recent memory, having to fire up Steam and uPlay to run the same game, Ubisoft in general, Bioware, Fucking Aliens: Colonial Fucking Marines, hack writing/game rags shitting all over their customers, a narrative that ensured game devs/pubs had no reason to improve, etc) and GG was what finally gave it some direction.

A really shitty direction for some.

To be fair I don't see GG-ers beating up on indie devs to the exclusion of the AAA guys. That thing I said about Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel? Randy Pitchford (CEO of Gearbox) and Anthony Burch (Lead writer in BL2, some of Pre-Sequel) have been vocally anti-GG, which is why the game is apparently political now. You won't see any love for them and "Boringlands: The Meme-Sequel" from GatorGarters. Not one bit. The Borderlands series is a bonafide AAA IP. They've also gone after Kotaku et al for being... well, themselves, when it comes to all games.

Again, to be fair to the Gearbox guys, a lot of this reminds me of the Dixie Chicks, when conservatives got so butthurt about comments [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], they all swore up and down that they never ever liked them at all anyway, honest. I'm pretty sure Borderlands' audience is politically diverse enough not to effect Gearbox's sales, tho'. (Full disclosure: I've been playing the Pre-Sequel every night since its release and am enjoying the fuck out of it.)

Unfortunately the pathetic shiteaters of the internet have to make sure that everything is as awful as possible, so any good that could've come from it is constantly undermined by the people who seem unable to respond to anything with any response other than death threats.

(For the record, I haven't seen more than one of Anita Sarkeesian's videos, but I did play through Depression Quest and found it to be garbage. It wasn't so much what it is to experience depression as somebody explaining why your choice is wrong by reading the DSM-IV to you.)

TL;DR: A corrupt campaign has attracted a lot of people who're pissed off about something completely unrelated and everything's fucked up and this is why we can't have nice things

Mr.Doobie wrote:
- more than a handful of early queer activists (mostly of the gay cis!male variety) were pederasty advocates
- Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist
- The Black Panther Party had a notable culture of virulent homophobia and misogyny
- Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe) is now a pro-life activist

note that none of this in any way makes the causes these people are associated with any less legit

Of those, only McCorvey is relevant, and only a little because she changed her mind. There's a difference between people having their shitty side, and people being straight-up hypocrites, you know.

The point here is that while some GGers have doxxed and harassed some people, GGers have been doxxed and harrassed by by anti-GGers, and if GGers are awful because of doxxing, harassment and threats, it's kinda stupid to try and denounce it and claim the moral high ground while doing the exact same thing you're denouncing.

Now if you want to say it's justified just because they're on the side of the angels, I still don't see how anything short of "Holy shit I totally caught the guy who's making the death threats HERE'S HIS ADDRESS CALL 911" really works.


Last edited by Penguin on Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Jeezus could I possibly get coherent tonight)
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Cunovendus wrote:

Honestly, I don't understand why people are so against girls getting involved in gaming, like they want it to be, and remain, one big boys' club. Wouldn't it be better if there were lots of girls out there who could share our interests? Yet whenever a girl declares herself, she is often either insulted, threatened, or hit on (I've seen all of these things happen). It's no wonder girls don't like to declare themselves to gamers when the gaming community is full of such arseholes, who can only find strength by hiding behind a screen and typing obscenities that nobody can hold them accountable for.

Gaming is not, never was, and never will be, an exclusively manly pursuit. People should stop trying to pretend that it is. Anyway that's my £0.02.

Gamers, if you want people to stop stereotyping you as a bunch of misogynistic basement-dwelling neckbeards, here's a hint: STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF MISOGYNISTIC BASEMENT-DWELLING NECKBEARDS!

Let me guess, when they're not terrorizing women who have the audacity to criticize video games, they also lament [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oh and one more webcomic link for the road: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:44 pm

Cyberwulf wrote:
Fuck "NOT ALL GAMERS". One bad apple spoils the bunch, and they all belong on the compost heap.


Aren't you a gamer? I am.

Don't you want both the gaming industry to realize that there are a hell of a lot of gamers who are not straight, white, cis males?

Because this "all gamers" shit basically says I don't exist, and that you don't exist. So uh... what the actual fuck?
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:46 pm

Mouse wrote:
Cunovendus wrote:

Honestly, I don't understand why people are so against girls getting involved in gaming, like they want it to be, and remain, one big boys' club. Wouldn't it be better if there were lots of girls out there who could share our interests? Yet whenever a girl declares herself, she is often either insulted, threatened, or hit on (I've seen all of these things happen). It's no wonder girls don't like to declare themselves to gamers when the gaming community is full of such arseholes, who can only find strength by hiding behind a screen and typing obscenities that nobody can hold them accountable for.

Gaming is not, never was, and never will be, an exclusively manly pursuit. People should stop trying to pretend that it is. Anyway that's my £0.02.

Gamers, if you want people to stop stereotyping you as a bunch of misogynistic basement-dwelling neckbeards, here's a hint: STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF MISOGYNISTIC BASEMENT-DWELLING NECKBEARDS!

Let me guess, when they're not terrorizing women who have the audacity to criticize video games, they also lament [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oh and one more webcomic link for the road: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
...you're really going to cite a grown man who has extremely strong opinions about toys for 6-year-olds who frequently puts his own opinions in the mouth of POC characters to make them seem more valid?

I mean, this is the guy who basically straight-up implied that you can change your sexuality on a whim if you feel really strongly that it's the way things should be.

ETA: Sorry, I can't let this go. Willis' treatment of minorities has pissed me off a lot in the past and fuck it, now's as good a time as any for word vomit.

This is the same guy who hooked up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] with a character whose entire schtick was that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so they could have a baby and get married and live happily ever after. He also only knocked her up because Robin is the Manic Pixy (Bisexual?) Dreamgirl who ate Amber's birth control because she "thought they were breath mints." LOLQUIRKY

Of course the first recurring black dude in Shortpacked! is a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There are more problems than that, like the entire story arc of Robin and "her lesbian," Leslie Bean (no seriously) but you know what? Fuck it, I've got Scavs to butt-slam with my farty Oz kit.


Last edited by Penguin on Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : jesus typos)
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:18 pm

I put in the webcomic links to liven up a dull rant and keep it from being dull and ranty. If in these shadows we have offended, think but this and all is mended, that this is but the Internet and rants are as common as milkweed pollen and often easily ignored and fuck it, I'm tired of the Shakespearean riff. If you wanna have a discussion on the Shortpacked!verse, can we save it for the bad webcomic thread and try to make some attempt to stay on topic?
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:33 pm

A plague o' both your houses.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:28 pm

Spoonwoman wrote:
fuck you

fuck you

you really don't get it do you?

annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd fuck you



thx 4 playing pls try again later

Spoonman(woman) is a master of reasoned discourse.

Cyberwulf wrote:
Fuck "NOT ALL GAMERS". One bad apple spoils the bunch, and they all belong on the compost heap.

That's is literally the exact opposite thing you say about every unhinged feminist and false rape accusation.

Penny wrote:
I think the only reason GG has had so much traction is that a lot of gamers are justifiably frustrated with a lot of problems in the industry (like the infamous Kane & Lynch review, everything EA's done in recent memory, having to fire up Steam and uPlay to run the same game, Ubisoft in general, Bioware, Fucking Aliens: Colonial Fucking Marines, hack writing/game rags shitting all over their customers, a narrative that ensured game devs/pubs had no reason to improve, etc) and GG was what finally gave it some direction.

THANK YOU

This ridiculous collusion between the companies making the video games and the people reviewing the video games (and the "always on" bullshit, and NHL15...) is unacceptable, and the people involved deserve the heat they get.

Penny wrote:
(Full disclosure: I've been playing the Pre-Sequel every night since its release and am enjoying the fuck out of it.)

Well, YOU seem like an honest potential reviewer and I'm sure you'll have no problem telling Mikey, in detail, what is good and bad about it. For free.

Even though Mikey keeps calling you "Penny."
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:46 pm

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:
telling Mikey, in detail, what is good and bad about it

You didn't ask for it, but yer gonna get it.

Nisha is the shit. The absolute shit. She has great quips. Her action skill is great fun. I like that women outnumber men in the playable characters. You don't see that a lot. Especially when neither of the playable females are the 'healer' type. In fact, afaik, Nisha can only heal herself.

The story line, so far, is greatly entertaining. Play is challenging enough to be fun, but not enough that I can't play on two big cups of OJ turned brown with dark rum. This is perhaps not the best measure for other people. (kids, don't try this at home!! No. Wait. Do. Do this often.)

For more detail, i gotta sober up :D
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:08 pm

Penguin wrote:
Of those, only McCorvey is relevant, and only a little because she changed her mind. There's a difference between people having their shitty side, and people being straight-up hypocrites, you know.

The point here is that while some GGers have doxxed and harassed some people, GGers have been doxxed and harrassed by by anti-GGers, and if GGers are awful because of doxxing, harassment and threats, it's kinda stupid to try and denounce it and claim the moral high ground while doing the exact same thing you're denouncing.

Now if you want to say it's justified just because they're on the side of the angels, I still don't see how anything short of "Holy shit I totally caught the guy who's making the death threats HERE'S HIS ADDRESS CALL 911" really works.

#1 - off-topic but I'm not sure I would call McCorvey a hypocrite so much as someone who changed her mind

#2 - the point wasn't about justifying the behavior but saying poor (contradictory/hypocritical, etc) behavior on the part of those who are associated with a cause doesn't stop a cause from being legitimate.

now whether or not you can call anti-ggism a "cause" so much as a bunch of feminists going "dude wtf" is up for debate (but it probably isn't) I think my point still stands. Namely, that some gamer feminist used ableist slurs and a handful of GG-supporters were doxxed and threatened doesn't justify........ uh...... whatever 16 thinks it justifies......

It doesn't really prove much of anything either
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:54 am

rae wrote:
Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:
telling Mikey, in detail, what is good and bad about it

You didn't ask for it, but yer gonna get it.

Nisha is the shit. The absolute shit. She has great quips. Her action skill is great fun. I like that women outnumber men in the playable characters. You don't see that a lot. Especially when neither of the playable females are the 'healer' type. In fact, afaik, Nisha can only heal herself.

The story line, so far, is greatly entertaining. Play is challenging enough to be fun, but not enough that I can't play on two big cups of OJ turned brown with dark rum. This is perhaps not the best measure for other people. (kids, don't try this at home!! No. Wait. Do. Do this often.)

For more detail, i gotta sober up :D

1.) Good to hear. Mikey was excited to play as Nisha (the best villain from the previous game) and CL4PTR4P (Mikey in vidya form).
2.) Drunk vidya is best vidya
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:43 am

Mouse wrote:

Gamers, if you want people to stop stereotyping you as a bunch of misogynistic basement-dwelling neckbeards, here's a hint: STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF MISOGYNISTIC BASEMENT-DWELLING NECKBEARDS!

Yeah...you know when people have a go at people for saying things like "not all men/gamers/whatever are like this"? Comments like this are the reason we feel the need to do this.

And at the risk of invoking the "not all gamers!" line...not all gamers are like this. Seriously, I do not give a shit who plays the games that I like. If you girls want to fire up Elite: Dangerous, be my guest. I'll even point you to the website where you can pre-order it from! I have never had a problem with girls playing games, and I'm quite happy if they do, to be honest. I don't want to live entirely in a community full of just guys! How am I supposed to meet girls who share my interests that way? Razz

But then, I've seen gamers display some pretty odd behaviour; when Dragon Age 2 was released, the community was practically at cyber-war with the developers, accusing them of "betraying their loyal fans" and "selling out to the console fans". I hated the game too, but my reaction is simply to not buy it. I guess I just find it hard to get so worked up about stuff like that when there's so much worse happening in the world than a computer game not being to one's liking.

Quote :
Let me guess, when they're not terrorizing women who have the audacity to criticize video games, they also lament how they can't seem to meet any women.

Probably. In fact, it's probably this bitterness at being unable to "get laid" (I hate that term btw) that drives this behaviour, because complaining about it and being bitter to all women is much better than actually doing something about it. This is also why I will never get involved with a group like MRA.

As for female protagonists...there are plenty. Every fighting game (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, Mortal Kombat...) has a few female characters who are on a par with the males. Every RPG that lets you create a character will let you create a female one, and most of them have at least one female companion who joins your team and fights alongside you. Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen both plan to let you play as a female pilot (and in Elite, this is currently implemented). XCom: Enemy Unknown not only features a female German scientist in the supporting cast but generates female soldiers for your team who perform just as well as the males. Portal, one of my favourite FPS games, casts you as a girl. Bloodrayne is about a female vampire who slices her way through lots of enemies of both genders (yes, the whole "vamp-feeding" thing is sexualised, but really, who cares?). Mira from Space Marine, Alex Vance from Half Life 2, Jan Ors from Jedi Knight, two of the playable characters from Rise of the Triad, the elf wizard from Warhammer: Mark of Chaos, Jaina Proudmore from Warcraft 3... these are just characters I can think of off the top of my head who aren't damsels in distress.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:07 am

rae wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Fuck "NOT ALL GAMERS". One bad apple spoils the bunch, and they all belong on the compost heap.


Aren't you a gamer? I am.

Don't you want both the gaming industry to realize that there are a hell of a lot of gamers who are not straight, white, cis males?

Because this "all gamers" shit basically says I don't exist, and that you don't exist. So uh... what the actual fuck?
Fine, fuck "NOT ALL GAMERGATERS" then. Fuck that as the first response to a woman being hounded from her house because she criticised games and caused the adolescent guys who played them to flip their shit. It shows that the most important thing to the person saying it is to point out what a good person they are, so therefore they don't have to think about the bad behaviour of others in their group. It's only a few steps removed from "No Gamergater would do such a thing, it would hurt the cause!" which is what's going around right now with regard to the USU shooting threat. (That and "bitch is making it up for attention" because "nobody would actually say 'feminists ruined my life'." Except anyone here who read the loveshy threads knows that's not true.)

Am I a gamer? I play at least one videogame a day. Usually two. Thing is, they're usually mobile or browser-based. I have a Steam account, a PS2, and a 3DS. If you're 24 or younger, I've been playing videogames for longer than you've been alive. I don't say that to pull rank, it's just a fact. But am I a gamer? To the 16-20something male military-themed FPS fans who have appointed themselves the arbiter of who's a gamer and who isn't, I'm not. And that subset btw is what's entering the public consciousness as what a "gamer" is. What's the other thing GGers are mad about? Some articles about how "gamers" are dead. That was the thrust of those articles, that "gamer" as in teenaged-young adult men who play triple A shooters aren't the only audience for videogames (something that should be pretty obvious by the amount of games that are clearly still aimed at children).

If I'm going to call myself anything, I prefer the term "videodame". I'm a woman (not a girl), and I've been playing games for nearly quarter of a century (it's got the connotation of being ANCIENT).

I think the gaming industry as a whole does realise that lots of other people play videogames. There's a ton of games that are obviously for kids. There are several different gaming platforms out there and several different kinds of games. If what you mean is that the big companies that develop the games that get the most press and have the most money to advertise need to realise that, well yes, obviously. More diverse protagonists and characters in any game would be excellent. How does a thousand screaming monkeys on twitter sending people death threats just for talking about diversity in videogames help that to happen?
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:19 am

Mouse wrote:
I put in the webcomic links to liven up a dull rant and keep it from being dull and ranty.

...it's literally a scrawl of Willis glowering and flipping the bird with wall-o-text bubbles. Doesn't liven up shit. Colbert

Quote :
If you wanna have a discussion on the Shortpacked!verse, can we save it for the bad webcomic thread and try to make some attempt to stay on topic?

Hey, you brought it in here.
Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:
Penny wrote:
(Full disclosure: I've been playing the Pre-Sequel every night since its release and am enjoying the fuck out of it.)

Well, YOU seem like an honest potential reviewer and I'm sure you'll have no problem telling Mikey, in detail, what is good and bad about it.  For free.

Even though Mikey keeps calling you "Penny."

I'll get to it when I'm done with first playthrough.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:41 am

[quote="Cyberwulf"]
rae wrote:
It shows that the most important thing to the person saying it is to point out what a good person they are, so therefore they don't have to think about the bad behaviour of others in their group.

I don't think it's because of not having to think about bad behaviour, but more to publicly distance themselves from it. It's for the same reason that Muslims all over the UK are publicly stating that ISIS do not speak for all Muslims. Those of us who have a brain might know that not all *insert demographic* are like this, but the problem is that not everybody does, and people are too quick to lump everybody in with a popular stereotype.

Quote :
To the 16-20something male military-themed FPS fans who have appointed themselves the arbiter of who's a gamer and who isn't, I'm not. And that subset btw is what's entering the public consciousness as what a "gamer" is.

Yep, and even then, it has to be multiplayer, competitively, in clans, and in publicly aired tournaments. I saw this sentiment in the Star Citizen forums - a whole subgroup was trying to claim that the game was a competitive dogfighting game, and that everybody who wasn't into that was a "carebear", hence inferior. Rolling Eyes To those people, I say: Screw you and your self-styled "hardore gaming"! I was gaming before it was even popular, when you had three lives and no save points, and no arrows to tell you where to go next, and the game did everything it could to stop you beating it.

Quote :
I think the gaming industry as a whole does realise that lots of other people play videogames. There's a ton of games that are obviously for kids. There are several different gaming platforms out there and several different kinds of games. If what you mean is that the big companies that develop the games that get the most press and have the most money to advertise need to realise that, well yes, obviously. More diverse protagonists and characters in any game would be excellent. How does a thousand screaming monkeys on twitter sending people death threats just for talking about diversity in videogames help that to happen?

Also true, and unfortunately, the big companies are going to market their games at the widest audience. That happens to currently be twenty-something males who think competitive multiplayer is the only way to play (and can spare 18 hours a day to dedicate to one game). This is also why most popular games are starting to look the same; because that's what the biggest marker wants, so that's what the corporations think sells.

Also, I personally would love to have more female protagonists too...if I wanted to look at blokes all day, I'd go to a wargaming convention! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:57 am

There should also be more games in which you can play as a bunny rabbit.

A little cutie bunny rabbit.

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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:35 am

Knorg wrote:
There should also be more games in which you can play as a bunny rabbit.

A little cutie bunny rabbit.


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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:33 pm

Eh, I hear it's not as good as Sam and Max Hit the Road. Now that was a hilarious game. I don't think Lucasarts ever put out a bad point'n'clicker actually.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:06 pm

Knorg wrote:
There should also be more games in which you can play as a bunny rabbit.

A little cutie bunny rabbit.


I want them to turn those stupid GameStop commercials into an actual game in the spirit of Conker's Bad Fur Day
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:35 pm

Personally I think badgers don't have enough representation in games. I want to see more games where you can play as a badger!
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:25 pm

The think that bothers me about people saying "not all gamers" or whatever is that I cannot recall is being used in response to anything that implied or stated that every single gamer is x, y, or z.  I mean, I am a gamer, I """identify""" as a gamer, most of my friends are gamers, and I have never read something saying that the gamer community is whatever or if gamers want blah they should stop blahblah and thought, "wowie that sure is offensive to me as a gamer." I mean, it is one thing if someone says "Every gamer is a shit lord and if you find out someone you know games you should immediately stop talking to them and I am judging you if you play any games at all," but, like, some people are so fucking sensitive about anyone suggesting that the group they belong in as a whole might have some issues.

I do not feel that people are trying to say that every individual gamer is a sexist asshole. Videogames is just a form of media that has been male dominated and still courts men as their primary demographic like most of forms of media, but perhaps to a greater extent than some.  Because of this there is a lot of sexism both in gaming communities and in the games themselves.  Also, a lot of male gamers have entitlement issues and dislike the idea of mainstream AAA games not being made explicitly for them.  None of that mean that gamers are all misogynists, none of that is implying gamers are all misogynists, but those things all need to be examined if games are ever going to improve.

Besides that, all forms of media are subject to critical analysis w/r/t social issues.  If this is happening more often with games now it is only a sign that society at large is beginning to take them more seriously ("seriously" like movies are, obv they are still just entertainment).  If anything the idea that "gamers" are all isolated basement-trolls doing nothing of value all day is changing for the better, and gaming is beginning to be seen as more normal.

ETA:

Pen wrote:
TL;DR: A corrupt campaign has attracted a lot of people who're pissed off about something completely unrelated and everything's fucked up and this is why we can't have nice things
Yeah, that is why I said half of em are just naive. Or maybe just suckers, whatever. I am willing to bet a lot of them are genuinely against the doxxing and harassing and have legit beefs with game politics, but they are being played by dickwads who want to fuck around with feminists. In any case if they want their message heard they really ought to get together with others who are on the same page, this bunch of bs is not going to do anything except make gamers look shitty and torment people.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:18 pm

/\ Most of this. I wish I understood or cared about this whole thing, as a 'gamer'. but I don't. The only issue I have if that Anita lady really didn't do the work she said she would after getting 120K in cash from people. It's not hard to get games and make videos about feminist or whatever issues. I mean, I could understand needing help on maybe finding consoles and correct games to play to help the topic, but actually needing money? Eh...
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:23 pm

Reepicheep-chan wrote:
The think that bothers me about people saying "not all gamers" or whatever is that I cannot recall is being used in response to anything that implied or stated that every single gamer is x, y, or z.  I mean, I am a gamer, I """identify""" as a gamer, most of my friends are gamers, and I have never read something saying that the gamer community is whatever or if gamers want blah they should stop blahblah and thought, "wowie that sure is offensive to me as a gamer." I mean, it is one thing if someone says "Every gamer is a shit lord and if you find out someone you know games you should immediately stop talking to them and I am judging you if you play any games at all," but, like, some people are so fucking sensitive about anyone suggesting that the group they belong in as a whole might have some issues.

I suppose it depends whether you're following all of this kerfluffle at all, and then, who you follow.

Because I have seen people flat-out claim that all gamers are ______. Even in this thread.

Quote :
Also, a lot of male gamers have entitlement issues and dislike the idea of mainstream AAA games not being made explicitly for them.  None of that mean that gamers are all misogynists, none of that is implying gamers are all misogynists, but those things all need to be examined if games are ever going to improve.

I don't think that's true. Not as much as it's cracked up to be, anyway. Does it happen? Definitely. Teenagers/unemployed 20somethings tend to be entitled dickbags, and disproportionately represented on the Internet. But as a whole? I don't think it's more than a vocal minority that has far too much free time. The idea that a legion of male gamers want their big, white, brown-haired, 5-o'clock-shadowed, gravel-voiced power fantasy and nothing else, and will fight to the death to see that that is all that is published, is a publisher-friendly narrative that has been driving me up the wall for years.

The notion that gamers are mostly self-entitled dudebros who want everything their way has been the convenient narrative, at least since the last big issue facing gaming was "Doom makes you Columbine your school." There really isn't much to substantiate it, it's just the conventional wisdom. This shit is why Remember Me had such a tough time getting published. There was a developer who knew there was an audience for a mixed-race POC woman protagonist, but the publishers rejected the concept again and again. Their logic was the one constantly spouted by game journalists at the time: Oh, gamers are all white dudebros, they'll feel gay if they're asked to play her." No, seriously, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Remember Me did quite well, with most of the negative criticism revolving around the fact that its inventive "memory remix" segments were too few and far between. Nobody complained about being Nilin.

This notion, this stereotype, is toxic no only to non-white non-cismale gamers, but to the industry itself.

(Full disclosure, I picked up Remember Me for myself, and couple of my friends while it was on sale on Steam. I enjoyed it quite a bit, I've yet to hear a single complaint from anyone else who's played it. It's currently $29.99USD on Steam.)

There's a reason for this. Developers tend to be gamers themselves; it's what led to their passion to create games. Publishers, on the other hand, are purely businessmen. MBAs to keep the devs grounded in reality, at least in theory. Most of what they know about the industry is taken entirely from gamer publications. Game journalists have leaned on the stereotype for a long time.

Take, for example, Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame. He has famously despised multiplayer shooters. At first, he complained that NATO (America in particular) fighting Russia was a relic of the Cold War and incredibly played out. But in subsequent iterations of Call of Duty, and other IPs, where the enemy was anyone other than Russia, he complained about shooters being nothing more than fantasies of shooting lots of brown people.

So this was an issue facing the FPS genre: Go back to WW2 (which CoD left because everyone was so bored of shooting Nazis), cook up a "Cold War gone hot" scenario (yaaaaaaaaawn), or come up with a different antagonist (what, you mean most of the world ISN'T WHITE?!). It was getting pretty ridiculous.

Yet Ben "It's Only Terrorism When the Victims are White/Yahtzee" Croshaw didn't have any problems whatsoever with the overt racism in Far Cry 3, simply because the game was, well, a good game and failed to bore him. Not a peep about the themes of imperialism and the Great White Savior; in fact, he complained that the "[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]" option was the ham-fistedly Bad End. Very few game journalists so much as questioned the lead writer, Jeffrey Yohalem, about the issues with the game, and they all seemed to accept his mealy-mouthed defense that the game was a work of satire.

Well, apparently nobody got the joke, because it seems that everyone ate up the "protagonist isn't a soldier" thing as a Great Subversion (despite the fact that the white, brown-haired dudebro protagonist becomes a god of war 30 seconds into the game) and couldn't stop singing Far Cry 3's praises.

I can't speak for everyone, but that's a big reason why I tend to view game journalists waving the flag of social justice with a jaundiced eye.

Quote :
Besides that, all forms of media are subject to critical analysis w/r/t social issues.  If this is happening more often with games now it is only a sign that society at large is beginning to take them more seriously ("seriously" like movies are, obv they are still just entertainment).  If anything the idea that "gamers" are all isolated basement-trolls doing nothing of value all day is changing for the better, and gaming is beginning to be seen as more normal.

That's the thing, though. At least in my case, I usually see reviewers being lazy. Instead of criticizing a game on its merits, if they don't like it because they're bored of it, they can't simply say it's played out. They have to reach for some sort of higher reason for it to be bad.

Call of Duty: Ghosts was such a shittily-written game with daddy issues out the ass and stopped just short of writing ridiculous regenerating health directly into the story. But rather than tackle the real problems with the plot, or the fact that it was an incredibly samey Call of Duty, most of the criticism revolved around the notion that the bad guys were a coalition of South American governments. Its campaign was shit, and even diehard streamers were saying that its multiplayer added absolutely nothing of value to the genre, but the "legitimate" reviewers were caught up in HA HA THE POWERFUL ENEMIES ARE SOUTH AMERICAN, HOW DROLL, A HAH HAH.

Maybe this one just stuck in my craw because CoD gamers have been the go-to target for shitbirds like Willis, because despite the stereotype, most of us are hoping for something new, inclusive and awesome, and are cautiously optimistic about Advanced Warfare. Yet the irony of the lazy criticism of the series is that it gives Activision every excuse to demand carbon copies until CoD is the new Madden.

Reepi wrote:
Yeah, that is why I said half of em are just naive.  Or maybe just suckers, whatever.  I am willing to bet a lot of them are genuinely against the doxxing and harassing and have legit beefs with game politics, but they are being played by dickwads who want to fuck around with feminists.  In any case if they want their message heard they really ought to get together with others who are on the same page, this bunch of bs is not going to do anything except make gamers look shitty and torment people.

The problem with that is that thanks to this, there is no divorcing the legitimate beef from the shit. If GamerGate died right now, if at any point in the forseeable future someone said, "Okay, now can we talk about how garmes jurnalizm is an ass sandwich, made of ass and poo?" the knee-jerk reaction would be to shout them down because that was the same thing a lot of GamerGaters were saying. The very notion of criticism has now been tainted.

I don't think it's a matter of being a patsy. Not since August, anyway. The people who really do care about the state of the industry and think that there's something valid to the arguments against it have no choice but to go whole hog behind the hashtag now.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:29 pm

I know this is a "paintjob on the Titanic" type of critique but can we start some kind of movement or pass some kind of law forbidding the addition of the suffix gate to every scandal. It really makes no sense. Except with the Watergate scandal which made sense because it took place at the Watergate Hotel.

Anyway, back on topic. Anyone heard about Brianna Wu? Every time a woman complains about sexism in video games, the response is, "Why don't you make your own game?" Well, Brianna Wu did just that and got the same mature response of death threats. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Seriously, there may be legit complaints to make about game journalism but right now, I'll just quote from one of Cracked's articles about the whole debacle:

Quote :
If you want to campaign against corruption in video game journalism, fantastic! You've chosen the most luxurious righteousness on Earth. But joining #gamergate is like marching under Sauron's flag because you're worried about Minas Tirith's feudal inheritance of rulership. Even if you're claiming more enlightened motivations, you're charging with a stinking mob intent on ruining everything, unleashed by a raging asshole.
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PostSubject: Re: So, this whole "gamergate" thing   Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:50 pm

Mouse wrote:
I know this is a "paintjob on the Titanic" type of critique but can we start some kind of movement or pass some kind of law forbidding the addition of the suffix gate to every scandal. It really makes no sense. Except with the Watergate scandal which made sense because it took place at the Watergate Hotel.

Yes.

Quote :
I'll just quote from one of Cracked's articles

No.
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