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Cyberwulf
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PostSubject: Star Trek Into Darkness   Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:39 pm

(Goodness, did I not make a thread about this yet? I'm almost as worthless as the "writers" of Family Guy.)

Let me start by saying I've only seen Star Trek XII once. I have problems with Nu-Trek which I'm p sure I covered in the thread about Star Trek XI, so I didn't go into this movie with very high expectations. And I was rolling my eyes right from the start, when we opened with Kirk running from angry natives of a primitive culture because he's stolen a scroll and interfered with their society in defiance of the Prime Directive. Now I don't like Nu Kirk. Laugh at Shatner Kirk all you want, but he's a competent, experienced captain and has a lot of diplomatic, Picard-esque moments when he's not ripping his shirt off and throwing flying drop kicks. He went to school and studied his ass off to get where he is, and most of the time he behaves like an adult. Nu Kirk is CRAAAAWWWWWWWLING IIIIIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIN, because a) every protagonist has to be like that now, b) JJ Abrams and his writers don't get why Star Trek appeals to nerds. As much as Starfleet is a military organisation, all its officers went to four years of Space University to learn science and engineering and medicine out their asses, and now all that bookworming has paid off because they're EXPLORING THE GALAXY, FUCKERS. Anyway. To me, Nu Kirk fucking around on this planet and doing whatever to get the mission done was just more of the same shit that went on in the last movie, and just another reason why you don't promote some twenty-something with no experience to captain and then hand him the keys to the flagship of the fleet.

But then! Spock tattles on Kirk to Captain (Admiral?) Pike! Who takes the Enterprise away from Kirk. Oh my god. Consequences! Actual consequences! A chance for character growth! ...okay, it's undone almost immediately when a bunch of captains and admirals get massacred by the bad guy, Pike among them, and Kirk gets the Enterprise back. So Admiral Marcus sends Kirk and the Enterprise after the bad guy, with a bunch of special long-range torpedoes, to the Klingon homeworld. Who cares that this could start a war, Kirk is totally on board for killing the bad guy. Scotty's not happy with bringing these special torpedoes on board because who knows what's in them, and during an argument with Kirk, he quits. And Kirk is rattled. When they get to Klingon space, and Kirk tells the crew what they're about to do, the possible ramifications of firing long-range weapons wildly at another planet hits him, and he changes his mind. They'll go arrest the guy and bring him to trial like civilised people. CHARACTER GROWTH. DEVELOPMENT. MATURITY.

I was totally on board with the film at this point. I rolled my eyes at the continuation of the stupid Uhura/Spock "romance", but at least Uhura gets to use her mad language skills on the Klingons when they go to arrest the bad guy. I took a hard swallow and tried to ignore Kirk looking at Carol Marcus getting undressed. And okay, the bad guy turned out to be Khan Singh, which was a bit predictable, but rather than being an independent agent he's being used by Admiral Marcus to justify a war because allegory for current events etc. and the torpedoes are all his buddies in cryogenic stasis.

And then in the final battle the writers threw up their hands and said OH FUCKIT LET'S JUST DO WRATH OF KHAN. LET'S DO WRATH OF KHAN EVERYBODY except with Kirk in Spock's place. And he's not going to use a pair of gloves to fuck around with radioactive shit, he's going to CLIMB INTO THE ENGINE AND KICK THE WARP CORE BACK INTO ALIGNMENT. KICK. THE WARP CORE. INTO. ALIGNMENT. And then he dies and Spock screams KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN and goes on a rampage because that's what Vulcans do, right, that's totally what they're known for. So Spock goes to punch the shit out of Khan on a futuristic Earth tram or something. I can't remember because I was so disgusted at this point I didn't actually care what happened. The end of the movie read like something Bob Orci's had scribbled down in a tattered exercise book since 1983. I was honestly surprised that when all was said and done they didn't have a shot where Khan's refrozen body and all his friends are wheeled into the same warehouse where they keep the Ark of the Covenant.

The one saving grace is that Khan's blood is resurrection juice, so McCoy pumps Kirk full of it and saves us all from Star Trek XIII: The Search for Kirk.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:23 am

The impression I got from the new Star Trek films is that they were more concerned with bringing new fans to the fandom than actually creating something consistent with the previous films.

Which is fine, I suppose, except when they take it so far that it loses some of what Star Trek was originally supposed to be about, and turn it into another generic sci-fi action flick to appease fans of running gun battles and big explosions (while ignoring fans of clever and well thought out space exploration sci-fi), fans of Star Trek are likely to feel betrayed.

Also, the whole "rebellious youth who does crazy impulsive things without consequences, and it all turns out alright in the end when he inevitably becomes a hero" thing is becoming such a tired cliche. I don't mind when there are consequences (and resulting character growth), but too often there aren't - or if there are, they are usually, as you pointed out, almost immediately reversed for the sake of plot convenience.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:31 am

another example that jj just doesnt understand why people liked star trek in the first place and probably didnt even watch the movies and just sees them in relation to star wars

its like watching how i met your mother in which the show could be totally great but its just little microaggressions everywhere that just make the show kind of whiplashy in the end
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:29 pm

Well Kirk's inexperience is excusable. I served in the Navy and I'll never forget the day I graduated from boot camp at the age of 18 and they gave me command of the USS Nimitz. I didn't know what the hell I was doing either.

And while Benedict Cumberbatch is a wonderful actor I was wondering why they hired the whitest guy in the world to play Khan Noonian Singh. They could have done something weird and hire an actual Indian to play him. India has a huge movie industry and I'm sure they could have found a great actor unknown to western audiences and given him a shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:55 pm

I just enjoy that almost every big, geeky popcorn muncher being released in the past 1-3 years the entire cast are people i wouldnt mind sitting on my face.

I feel like Hollywood finally "gets" me.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:29 pm

Doesn't matter, he has Cracked sucking his dick for turning Trek into Wars.

As for not getting the core audience... we should've known that from the first shit movie that everyone liked, where Kirk made fun of Spock's mama which really hurt Spock's feelings so he lashed out and hit Kirk, and oh by the way I didn't just describe a kindergarten classroom but THE BRIDGE OF A FUCKING WARSHIP

Sorry nerds, Captain James T. "Stupid Fucking Jock" Kirk is here to give you an atomic wedgie and a swirlie, then slip your crush a roofie

You know what the really funny thing about it is? Starfleet Academy was something that should've resonated timelessly. US military officers all need a Bachelor's degree, with a STRONG preference for STEM fields. There's no basis for this nonsense in canon or real life. The idea of showing someone just kinda show up and take charge through sheer virtue of being a big dumb jock should've made everyone realize what a shitlord JJ Abrams is and how he had utterly ruined Star Trek, but no

Everyone loved that movie

All the problems with this one either were already manifest or predictable in the first one

But the nerds put that steroid-shortened acne-laden chode in their mouths and sucked like there was no tomorrow and they praised the rancid cum that slid down their gullet as if it was the finest crème fraîche

This is what you sad sacks of useless have wrought

This is the sum of your ambition

DUMB JOCK PUNCHKICKS THE UNIVERSE INTO SUBMISSION, NOW WITH MORE LENS FLARE

You've made your bed, now sleep in it.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:53 pm

I don't know Trek very well (I was a Star Wars-girl growing up) but I thoroughly agree: Into Darkness sucked. It felt like the writers were going "Okay if we do this, the fans will eat us alive." Basically all the characters felt like the actors doing their best [Insert Old Trek actor of choice] impression. Not to mention the whole Wrath-of-Khan shtick which made me say "They know the words but not the music."
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:22 pm

Cyberwulf wrote:
(Goodness, did I not make a thread about this yet? I'm almost as worthless as the "writers" of Family Guy.)

Weren't you also supposed to make a Family Guy thread, like, three years ago?

Penguin wrote:
rant

Aside from hamfistedly flinging Dumbass!Kirk into command through some contrivance I don't entirely remember because blah, the first movie did a decent job of setting the groundwork for some character development in Kirk from Dumbass to the alien/communications officer fucking, mature Kirk from ToS.  As Cyberwulf pointed out, they squandered that opportunity terribly.

They could have had Shiny Space Lasers and still have had Kirk seem like less of a Marty Stu shoehorned into the Captain's chair if they put just a tiny bit of thought into it.  Why not start the first movie with Kirk graduating from Starfleet Academy with a C- average or something?  That would establish him as a dumbass while doing it through the proper channels.  Then maybe they could have had Kirk and Spock stop catfighting like 14 year old girls on Facebook and actually act just a little bit like an officer and a Vulcan.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:10 am

Quote :
Everyone loved that movie

Actually, I'm not sure everybody did love the first New-Trek film. I think, in most cases, the mere fact that it was Star Trek (and we haven't had a Trek film for many years), combined with the nostalgia factor of new actors playing the original characters got most people through it. Take away the Star Trek franchise and the characters and it would have probably gotten an average review at best.

But even so, it was still a lot better than Star Trek Into Darkness. At least it was a bit cleverer than "oh, let's re-do The Wrath of Khan! Behold the new klingons! Pew pew bam bam dakka dakka omg expected plot twist!"

Quote :
I don't know Trek very well (I was a Star Wars-girl growing up)

I was actually more of a Star Wars fan too - the wing-nut in me loves the idea of small one man fighters zipping around with pew pew lasers (however unrealistic that may actually be) - but this kind of felt like it was trying to be more like Star Wars and less like Star Trek, and pew pew dakka dakka action was never the main thing that drew Trekkies to the series.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:14 am

Happyhooligan2001 wrote:
Well Kirk's inexperience is excusable. I served in the Navy and I'll never forget the day I graduated from boot camp at the age of 18 and they gave me command of the USS Nimitz. I didn't know what the hell I was doing either.

And while Benedict Cumberbatch is a wonderful actor I was wondering why they hired the whitest guy in the world to play Khan Noonian Singh. They could have done something weird and hire an actual Indian to play him. India has a huge movie industry and I'm sure they could have found a great actor unknown to western audiences and given him a shot.

At least original Khan was played by an Indian actor's non-union Mexican equivalent.
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Mikey Go WOOGA
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:14 pm

HappyHooligan wrote:
And while Benedict Cumberbatch is a wonderful actor I was wondering why they hired the whitest guy in the world to play Khan Noonian Singh.

You know full well the racists in Hollywood would never hire a Klingon actor to play a Klingon.  They're just going to get a white guy and put him in Klingonface.  And don't get me started on hiring humans to play Vulcan roles.

Do you fucking listen to yourself?
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:43 pm

There was really no reason for Benedict to be Khan anyway. The character he portrayed in Into Darkness had little to do with the actual character. The only reason they called him Khan instead of continuing to refer to him as John Harrison was that they were hoping the callback to Star Trek II would make the fanboys cream their pants and overlook all the flaws of Into Darkness.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:40 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:41 am

Well obviously they can't use real klingons...they'd never agree to something like that and would probably kill the casting agent for the insult! :D

Seriously though, the reason they didn't use an Indian actor was probably more out of a desire to use popular names. Benedict Cumberbatch is currently the big name, and the one that everybody wants. The main reason Hollywood uses certain actors is to capitalise on the names that are currently popular.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:33 pm

This is relevant
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun May 25, 2014 1:13 pm

SUMMARY OF ST:ID

Kirk gets his comeuppance for being an arrogant little brat, but we're still meant to believe that he's in the right and Spock is just being an anal retentitive prick like all Vulcans post Voyager Season 3. But wait, he has the Enterprise again 15 minutes later because Pike, the only person the entire franchise who is actually Captain material (and even he is absent minded enough to put Kirk in a position where he's first in line to Command the Enterprise if he's incapacitated), is dead.

From there it's just a wall of 'meh'. Blah blah blah the bad guy is totally not Khan. Blah blah srs business illegal torpedoes. Scotty sacked. Chekov running around corridors. Pacing feels feels too fast for a trip from all the way from Earth to Qo'nos, btw. Sulu being a bad-ass. Bad guy is actually Khan. Played by Benedict Cumberbach who's mouth is too big. Oh no, Marcus is actually the ultimate bad guy - why didn't he just use the Vengeance to provoke a war with the Klingons & kill Khan and not indulge in some convoluted BS in which he ultimately planned to destroy the Enterprise after they'd done their part (a ship that is only a year old and might be useful in a war) and gave Kirk & Khan the chance to scupper his plans? - Red Bull space jumping. Wait, now Khan is back to being the ultimate bad guy. Enterprise & Vengeance disabled.

Wait. What are they doing now? Kirk's going into the lethally radioactive Engine chamber? Oh God! No! Don't do it! No! Stop now! You can still be halfway subtle here if you walk away from it this second. He's dying... Spock's on the other side... hands on the glass... stop it! stop it now! This hurts! No! No, Spock! Don't!! KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

Talk about taking a massive crap on your audience's face. "Hey guys, my name's Roberto Orci and these are my lovers Alex Kurtzman and JJ Abrams. We think you're too stupid to understand the blindingly obvious nods to The Wrath of Khan, for example: the fact that we made the antagonist be Khan Noonien Singh, unless we spoon feed the concept to you in a completely cringeworthy fashion. Now excuse me, I have to steal Rick Berman's effigy of Gene Roddenberry and see can it take any more face-rape."

At that point the film went from being bland to being offensive. You could also poke it full of plot holes if you wanted to as well (such as: How was Khan discovered and the Vengeance designed, built and shaken down in complete secrecy, within the Solar system of the Federation capital no less, and then launched in the space of one year?), but you don't need to. That scene alone ruins it for me.




And when something is that bad, I start pondering how the Abramsverse in general sucks, a concept which I probably wouldn't put any thought into if the film wasn't so horrible.

Consider this:

Future Spock blames himself for Nero's incursion into the 23rd century and the subsequent destruction of Vulcan. So why hasn't he attempted to fix the timeline? And don't tell me can't. He'd easily persuade Kirk to help him: if he persuaded him to stand on a transporter pad and attempt something previously believed to impossible, he can persuade him to save a planet. And he knows how travel through time with nothing other than a warp-capable ship and a sufficiently large gravity source. And don't say 'but multiverse, HC!! He doesn't need to!', because in Star Trek, if you fuck up the timeline, you have to unfuck it up.

When McCoy went back through the Guardian of Forever, the omnipotent Guardian which knows everything told Kirk and Spock they had to follow him to fix the timeline. It didn't say 'Don't worry, your timeline still exists in another reality, please sit here until you either starve, or the Klingons discover this planet and chop you into little bits.'

When the Borg stopped First Contact and Picard was staring at an assimilated planet and a temporal vortex, he didn't say "oh well, the proper timeline still exists in another reality. Change course to take us clear of the Vortex, Mr. Data. Let's just try to hide somewhere and not get assimilated."

Same story in 'Past Tense'.

Star Trek's internal consistency isn't always great, but in time-travel stories, they have to fix the timeline or else they're all fucked. So why not here? Not even lip service to the concept. Spock seems content for all those people to be dead. No "Edith Keeler must die, Jim" here. Just c'est la fucking vie we'll go rebuild Vulcan. Is the death of billions of people due to Nero's temporal incursion not important enough to warrant fixing the timeline or something?

Here's a microcosm of the impact: No Tuvok. He's due to be born sometime around 2263 or 2264. But with only something like 10,000 out of several billion Vulcans surviving, his parents, even if they were already married and cohabitating and therefore if one was off-planet the other would've been too, have about a 0.0001% chance of being among the 10,000 who survived the destruction of Vulcan.

And that's before we ponder the long term impact on the timeline of the most intellectually capable race in the entire Federation being virtually wiped out. Klingons to control the resultantly weakened Federation by 2330?

And actually, have you noticed that the bad guys achieve some their goals and the happy endings seem a bit forced?
Nero gets to murder billions of people in revenge for the destruction of Romulus. But it's okay because Jim Kirk commands the Enterprise and Nero didn't destroy Earth. Earth is what's important, those Vulcans weren't really people anyway were they?
Khan gets his revenge on Marcus and saves his augmented bros. Sure they're in statis, but at least they aren't atomised all over the surface of Qo'nos. Also he probably kills a few thousand people by crashing the Vengeance into San Francisco. But it's okay because they rebuild the Enterprise and resurrect Kirk with Khan's superblood.


tl;dr the Abramsverse is and will always be shit.

Oh, and furthermore, canonically, the only series which still exists in the Star Trek universe is Enterprise.


Last edited by Hot Cancer on Sun May 25, 2014 4:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cyberwulf
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Sun May 25, 2014 4:22 pm

Hot Cancer wrote:
Oh, and furthermore, canocially, the only series which still exists in the Star Trek universe is Enterprise.

...

...

*silent shriek of horror*
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:52 pm

Cunovendus wrote:
Also, the whole "rebellious youth who does crazy impulsive things without consequences, and it all turns out alright in the end when he inevitably becomes a hero" thing is becoming such a tired cliche.
Completely agreed.

Happyhooligan2001 wrote:
Well Kirk's inexperience is excusable. I served in the Navy and I'll never forget the day I graduated from boot camp at the age of 18 and they gave me command of the USS Nimitz. I didn't know what the hell I was doing either.
Hahahah wat.  Forgive my ignorance of Navy terminology, but what do you mean by "gave me command"?  The Nimitz is practically a fucking city! That sounds completely bonkers to me.

Happyhooligan2001 wrote:
And while Benedict Cumberbatch is a wonderful actor I was wondering why they hired the whitest guy in the world to play Khan Noonian Singh.
I heard they handwave it in the prequels comic... apparently the Federation performed cosmetic surgery on him for reason.  Here is a fun fact: since I am a dumbass about names I spent a long time assuming that Kahn and his pals, being genetically crafted supermen, were meant to be racially ambiguous, because they were test tube babies with all the best genetics from all over.  I was wrong, but I sort of like my idea better, haha.

Side note: I feel terrible about it, but there were so many high-def close-ups of people's faces, it was driving me crazy that a genetically modified superbeing would have crooked teeth.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:02 pm

Cyberwulf wrote:
Hot Cancer wrote:
Oh, and furthermore, canocially, the only series which still exists in the Star Trek universe is Enterprise.

...

...

*silent shriek of horror*
I know, right?

On the plus side, Voyager no longer exists, so there's that. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:34 am

Kari Izumi wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Hot Cancer wrote:
Oh, and furthermore, canocially, the only series which still exists in the Star Trek universe is Enterprise.

...

...

*silent shriek of horror*
I know, right?

On the plus side, Voyager no longer exists, so there's that. :/
Neither does The Next Generation.

No Darmok.

Think about that.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:25 am

Reepicheep-chan wrote:
Happyhooligan2001 wrote:
Well Kirk's inexperience is excusable. I served in the Navy and I'll never forget the day I graduated from boot camp at the age of 18 and they gave me command of the USS Nimitz. I didn't know what the hell I was doing either.
Hahahah wat.  Forgive my ignorance of Navy terminology, but what do you mean by "gave me command"?  The Nimitz is practically a fucking city! That sounds completely bonkers to me.

thatsthejoke.jpg

That's literally what he's saying. Giving Kirk command straight outta Starfleet Academy is completely bonkers.
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PostSubject: Re: Star Trek Into Darkness   Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:46 am

Penguin wrote:
Reepicheep-chan wrote:
Happyhooligan2001 wrote:
Well Kirk's inexperience is excusable. I served in the Navy and I'll never forget the day I graduated from boot camp at the age of 18 and they gave me command of the USS Nimitz. I didn't know what the hell I was doing either.
Hahahah wat.  Forgive my ignorance of Navy terminology, but what do you mean by "gave me command"?  The Nimitz is practically a fucking city! That sounds completely bonkers to me.

thatsthejoke.jpg

That's literally what he's saying. Giving Kirk command straight outta Starfleet Academy is completely bonkers.
Fuck, sorry, I completely thought he was serious.

Damn, I am usually quicker on the uptake than that.
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