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 Boy killed for walking while black

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Penguin
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Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptySun Jul 28, 2013 3:07 am

Freezer wrote:
Penguin wrote:
Cyberwulf wrote:
Lady Anne wrote:
You know, if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun, he might not have gotten killed.
If Trayvon Martin had had a gun that night, and had shot George Zimmerman, he'd be in prison right now.

Probably... because minors can't possess handguns or get a concealed carry permit. SYG might apply but he'd still be screwed on possession.

Because she was talking about his age.  Yes.



Because this is a very serious and rational discussion. Yes.
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Cyberwulf
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptySun Jul 28, 2013 4:36 am

Penguin, there's no way that "illegal possession of a handgun" would be the only thing Martin was charged with in this hypothetical scenario. I'm not basing that on absolutely nothing, or white guilt, or liberal paranoia. Martin was the victim here, and every aspect of his life from the clothes he was wearing to his Facebook photos to his school discipline record was scrutinised and harped on by the media, Zimmerman, and Zimmerman's family. No matter what really happened in Universe A, where Martin was packing heat too, the story would absolutely have been framed as "Thug Guns Down Neighbourhood Watch Volunteer".

"Stand Your Ground" laws weren't drafted for black teenagers walking home from the shops. They were drafted so that homeowners (probably white or passing as white) could open fire on criminals breaking in to rob/rape/murder without fear of ending up in prison themselves. Now we have a situation where people can freely murder strangers on the street and get away with it as long as there are no independent witnesses and they can come up with a nice fairy story about how they were attacked out of the blue by a hulking brute who would surely have killed them with his bare hands. As long as their race and gender lines up, of course.
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Penguin
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptySun Jul 28, 2013 11:03 am

Cyberwulf wrote:
Penguin, there's no way that "illegal possession of a handgun" would be the only thing Martin was charged with in this hypothetical scenario. I'm not basing that on absolutely nothing, or white guilt, or liberal paranoia.

Then what is your speculation founded on? It doesn't matter what he looked like, once the cops find you doing one thing "wrong" prosecution tends to snowball from there. The scenario couldn't be neatly flipped over unless Martin was also 21 with a carry permit. And Zimmerman would've had to have done something to threaten Martin's life and justify a defensive action. Like, for example, if his gun was drawn while he was following him.

Quote :
Martin was the victim here, and every aspect of his life from the clothes he was wearing to his Facebook photos to his school discipline record was scrutinised and harped on by the media, Zimmerman, and Zimmerman's family.

And if you changed the channel to anywhere other than Fox News you got the exact opposite, where a racist wannabe cop (and possible child rapist) murdered a boy, if they bothered to talk about it at all. Whichever narrative the audience subscribes to, it was catered to.

Quote :
"Stand Your Ground" laws weren't drafted for black teenagers walking home from the shops. They were drafted so that homeowners (probably white or passing as white) could open fire on criminals breaking in to rob/rape/murder without fear of ending up in prison themselves.

That's "castle doctrine," not "stand your ground." SYG's primary purpose is to eliminate the "duty to retreat" while in public or any other place you have the right to be. The concept of "duty to retreat" means that, if you are threatened, you must try to escape first if there’s any possibility of doing so.

There’ve been many legitimate defensive shootings (and other acts of self-defense) where the shooter was prosecuted and convicted, because the prosecution asserted that they could have run away from their attacker(s), but didn’t. The accusations run from the plausible to completely unreasonable. It’s relatively easy for a prosecutor to "armchair quarterback" the situation to convince the jury that the defendant could have run away, but they just wanted to hurt or kill somebody. It doesn’t matter that, say, fear-induced adrenaline caused "tunnel vision" where you could only really take notice of your attacker, for example, if there was an alley nearby you could’ve fled down that you didn’t notice. The opportunity was there, you just "chose" not to take it.

SYG is supposed to eliminate the "duty to retreat" to prevent this. If you are in fear for your life, you may defend yourself with deadly force.



Quote :
Now we have a situation where people can freely murder strangers on the street and get away with it as long as there are no independent witnesses and they can come up with a nice fairy story about how they were attacked out of the blue by a hulking brute who would surely have killed them with his bare hands. As long as their race and gender lines up, of course.

That simply isn't so.
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Mr.Doobie
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptySun Jul 28, 2013 3:35 pm

Pengy wrote:
That simply isn't so.

Well of course that guy got punished...

....

.....

He's hispanic and he shot a white person!
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Freezer
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 9:55 pm

Many of you have probably seen this image pop up in various places:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We'll ignore the "What About White People" tone and the ignorance it shows about WHY the Martin/Zimmerman case caught fire the way it did. I just want to know what the people who proudly displayed that image will say about this:

Quote :
(CBS) BRUNSWICK, Ga. - The father and mother of Antonio Santiago, the 13-month-old baby who was allegedly fatally shot in Brunswick, Ga. by two teens in March, had gunshot residue on them the day their son was killed, according to the state's forensic report obtained by CBS affiliate WTEV.

While the fact that Sherry West, the baby's mother, was also shot during her son's killing could explain why residue was found on her, it is unclear how or why the baby's father, Louis Santiago, would have been exposed to gunshot residue.

A conclusion from the state forensic report says, "This supports the possibility that [Louis Santiago] discharged a firearm, was in close proximity to a firearm upon discharge, or came into contact with an item whose surface bears GSR [gunshot residue]."

Not exactly a smoking gun (pun not intended) - especially since they're not saying where on West or Santiago they found the residue (but isn't it usually hands and the area around any bullet holes they test?) - but I'd like to hear an explanation. And I'd like to hear from those "Speaking for Antonio". Those who wouldn't have to be reminded of who that is, anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyWed Jul 31, 2013 10:13 am

Oh jeez, 'cause the like there is no way I could not pull up a half dozen blatant murders of black dudes that got like no justice and no media attention either. Nope! One murdered black child managed to generate some outrage so therefore REVERSE RACISM because murdered white kids NEVER get on the news ever right?

You know I can understand all those white dudes who are too apathetic to give a shit about problems that do not affect them, but I am never going to understand the ones who play victim like that. Fuck those guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyWed Jul 31, 2013 12:21 pm

I still don't know why we still can't look at the fact that an innocent boy was killed and an irresponsible vigilante walked away without justice rightfully served. There was something that went off in Zimmerman's head that said, "get out of your vehicle and confront this person." It was racially motivated. Hands down. He profiled that kid. People do it all the time, albeit most of the time it does not end in a death (but it certainly can and has set the stage for it) We need to be called out on our prejudices both personally, within our own communities, and systemically and own up to them so that stuff like this doesn't happen anymore. That's it. Seriously. I have prejudices and moments of racism that I need to work through as well. We need to have honest conversations, not pissing contests. We need to stop being afraid of hearing the word racism, stop being afraid of being called or perceived as a racist, and confront it like the issue that it is (along with sexism, heteronormativity, etc.) And to be fair to people like Penguin, it is difficult to have these conversations and make these changes as it requires an immense amount of self-discipline, empathy, and reflection to do this.

Empathy is an important start. This is a great article for making that important start:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Mr.Doobie
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyWed Jul 31, 2013 1:49 pm

the article wrote:
America's corporate interest set the demoralization and self-hatred to (rap) music

Uhhhhhhhh......

I know this is getting nitpicky for no good reason.... but uhhhhhhhhh....
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Freezer
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyWed Jul 31, 2013 2:05 pm

Mr.Doobie wrote:
the article wrote:
America's corporate interest set the demoralization and self-hatred to (rap) music

Uhhhhhhhh......

I know this is getting nitpicky for no good reason.... but uhhhhhhhhh....

Jason Whitlock has had a hate-boner for hip-hop culture for years.  If you listen to him (and I actively don't), half the ills of Black America can be cured by getting rid of hip-hop.

If you want to get an idea of how ridiculous Whitlock can get, listen to this edition of his podcast, where he tries to blame the NBA's downturn in popularity (read: with White America) on hip-hop culture and gets clowned for it by rapper Killer Mike.

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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyWed Jul 31, 2013 7:08 pm

Freezer wrote:
Not exactly a smoking gun (pun not intended) - especially since they're not saying where on West or Santiago they found the residue (but isn't it usually hands and the area around any bullet holes they test?) - but I'd like to hear an explanation.
Something's fishy. However, GSR can remain on hands, washing or no, for about 24 hours. Enough to set off detectors in airports.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 9:56 am

To some extent, I know the hip-hop claim is a little absurd. But shit, if we want to get into art as a way to promote fascism (or in this case, corporate control of culture) we can totally talk about that.

I mean, hip-hop portrays male/female dynamics in particular ways that are untrue, but so does Bon Jovi, Whitesnake, etc. Much of the popular, mainstream rap also has the ability to portrays this idea that if you are a criminal, you can easily become a hip-hop star by rapping about your crimes while also obtaining massive amounts of money to spend on luxury cruise ships where you can then pour a bunch of wine all over the women that are there (ie. Jay-Z's Big Pimpin'... which I actually really like)

What I will say though, is that much of the older generations think that hiphop is setting back everything that was worked for, while younger generations embrace it AND the word "nigga" (and I know Whitlock mentions 'niggadom') as a term to refer to close friends. I remember having this discussion with a woman who works on a professional development team in Seattle's inner city schools talking about how "nigga" has been spun to the younger generations to keep them constantly oppressed. But then again, I'm torn on the matter as an English teacher because language evolves and forms different context all the time (and maybe it's an ownership of the word as subtle retaliation toward the system much like how LGBT has adopted and embraced the word "gay")

So, on that note, I do disagree with that particular portion because I think rap, even the heavier/vulgar, is important. However, there is a fair amount of corporate-heavy hyper-capitalist rap that continues to promote the distortion of the actual reality that many inner city black communities experience. It's another one of those chicken and the egg scenarios. But, I suppose what I do appreciate about the article is putting black-on-black violence (since that seems to be one of the popular talking points regarding the verdict reaction/outrage) into the context of hopelessness, a feeling that everyone can certainly relate to.
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Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 6:42 pm

Eeveegou wrote:
I still don't know why we still can't look at the fact that an innocent boy was killed and an irresponsible vigilante walked away without justice rightfully served. There was something that went off in Zimmerman's head that said, "get out of your vehicle and confront this person." It was racially motivated. Hands down. He profiled that kid. People do it all the time, albeit most of the time it does not end in a death (but it certainly can and has set the stage for it) We need to be called out on our prejudices both personally, within our own communities, and systemically and own up to them so that stuff like this doesn't happen anymore. That's it. Seriously. I have prejudices and moments of racism that I need to work through as well. We need to have honest conversations, not pissing contests. We need to stop being afraid of hearing the word racism, stop being afraid of being called or perceived as a racist, and confront it like the issue that it is (along with sexism, heteronormativity, etc.) And to be fair to people like Penguin, it is difficult to have these conversations and make these changes as it requires an immense amount of self-discipline, empathy, and reflection to do this.

Empathy is an important start. This is a great article for making that important start:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A friendly tip, Eevee: never under any circumstances take anything Jason Whitlock says seriously. Besides being(as I mentioned on the Jovan Belcher thread) a self-righteous prick, he's also a world-class idiot who has a nasty habit of projecting his own worst flaws onto others. He thinks he knows all the answers when he hasn't even heard half the questions. And incidentally, I agree with Freezer: blaming hip-hop for all of black America's ills shows, at best, extremely muddled thinking. The true relationship between the hip-hop genre and the social condition of black America today is a lot more complicated than Whitlock is able or willing to acknowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyFri Aug 02, 2013 5:05 pm

Chris91 wrote:
The true relationship between the hip-hop genre and the social condition of black America today is a lot more complicated than Whitlock is able or willing to acknowledge.
and I suspect chalky snowballs have no business pontificating on that relationship because we won't actually know or understand what we're talking about
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptySat Aug 03, 2013 11:14 pm

There is something to glean from an article regardless of who it is written by (I try to take something away from most things that I read because... I don't know... that's typically what leads one to being well-rounded) Obviously I use my discretion, but what was nice, and what is indisputable, about this article was that it provides a gateway to finding that understanding when it comes to hopelessness... Which is something we all experience from time to time. Or all the time. Like my friend who shot himself.

The history behind hip-hop is another conversation entirely especially when you're trying to get the general public to grip onto the intricacies of the new Jim Crow (mass incarceration of black men) within a short article. It would've been interesting had he delved deeper into his argument that he sort of threw out there about rap music. But I mean, if we want to talk about rap music and how it's been torn apart and deconstructed to maintain the status quo, the opposite of its initial goal, then we totally can. *shrug* I'd love to talk about that further.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 1:19 pm

Oh hey guys breaking news.

cnn wrote:
Police in a central Florida town say George Zimmerman was taken into custody Monday after his estranged wife reported that he was allegedly threatening her and her father with a gun.

Last week, his wife, Shellie Zimmerman. filed for divorce.

CNN quotes police as saying that Zimmerman is in "investigative custody."
The dirt on the divorce is as follows:

abc wrote:
She claims that at times he was verbally abusive and hurt her "emotionally, but never physical."

"I think I'm realizing that I have been married to a person for almost seven years, and I don't think that I ever really knew him at all," Shellie Zimmerman said.

Shellie Zimmerman said her husband is not only driving too fast, referencing the two incidents in which her husband has been pulled over for speeding recently, but also living too fast since his acquittal.

She says he spent maybe three or four nights at their home with her before she moved out in mid-August. She says she believes the not guilty verdict has left her husband feeling "invincible" and since then has been "making some reckless decisions."
Dang looks like letting a dude stone-cold murder a child might not have been the right call?
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 4:32 pm

Reepicheep-chan wrote:
Oh hey guys breaking news.

cnn wrote:
Police in a central Florida town say George Zimmerman was taken into custody Monday after his estranged wife reported that he was allegedly threatening her and her father with a gun.

Last week, his wife, Shellie Zimmerman. filed for divorce.

CNN quotes police as saying that Zimmerman is in "investigative custody."
The dirt on the divorce is as follows:

abc wrote:
She claims that at times he was verbally abusive and hurt her "emotionally, but never physical."

"I think I'm realizing that I have been married to a person for almost seven years, and I don't think that I ever really knew him at all," Shellie Zimmerman said.

Shellie Zimmerman said her husband is not only driving too fast, referencing the two incidents in which her husband has been pulled over for speeding recently, but also living too fast since his acquittal.

She says he spent maybe three or four nights at their home with her before she moved out in mid-August. She says she believes the not guilty verdict has left her husband feeling "invincible" and since then has been "making some reckless decisions."
Dang looks like letting a dude stone-cold murder a child might not have been the right call?
wow its almost like he thinks he can get away with anything inc threatening ppl with a gun
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 4:42 pm

Quote :
She says he spent maybe three or four nights at their home with her before she moved out in mid-August. She says she believes the not guilty verdict has left her husband feeling "invincible" and since then has been "making some reckless decisions."
Is she a psychologist?

Maybe the stress brought on by a combination of being involved in a lethal altercation, being unjustly tried for first degree murder, having to pay ALL THOSE LEGAL BILLS brought on by the embarrassingly unjust prosecution of him for first degree murder, and having the the New Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, the Attorney General of the most powerful nation on the planet, and the President of the most powerful nation on the planet all out for your head has started to wear on him.

Maybe.

Reepy wrote:
Dang looks like letting a dude stone-cold murder a child might not have been the right call?
8/10

Would rage again.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 5:51 pm

Mikey Go WOOGA wrote:
Maybe the stress brought on by a combination of being involved in a lethal altercation, being unjustly tried for first degree murder, having to pay ALL THOSE LEGAL BILLS brought on by the embarrassingly unjust prosecution of him for first degree murder, and having the the New Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, the Attorney General of the most powerful nation on the planet, and the President of the most powerful nation on the planet all out for your head has started to wear on him.
1) He was charged with Second Degree Murder
2) Unjustly? Overreaching at the most. You want to tell me he should've have been charged with a crime and I will straight up call you a fool.
3) Wait: Let me break out the world's tiniest violin to play the world's saddest song.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 6:12 pm

Freezer wrote:
2) Unjustly? Overreaching at the most. You want to tell me he should've have been charged with a crime and I will straight up call you a fool.
I think you missed a negative somewhere in the second sentence.

Certain criminal charges could have been defensible. They still would have been shaky, due to no one really being able to establish what the hell actually happened, but they wouldn't been a complete mockery of the justice system brought on by the politics of race baiters and other liberals.

Like the manslaughter charge, which the defense tried to throw in at the last minute because they knew they done fucked up royal trying to charge Zimmerman with murder. That should have been the most he was charged with in the first place, and even voluntary manslaughter is pushing it. There could have been a case for involuntary manslaughter.

But charging him with murder on the basis that he "racially profiled" Treyvon Martin when EVERY body investigating the incident said that there was no evidence that that is what actually happened is a miscarriage of justice and the prosecutor should be sanctioned for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Quote :
(CNN) -- No charges will be filed against George Zimmerman after an alleged altercation with his estranged wife and her father, Lake Mary, Florida, Police Chief Steve Bracknell said Monday.
"Shellie Zimmerman has declined prosecution (after consulting with her attorney)," Bracknell said.
Hmm.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 6:23 pm

Penguin wrote:
Quote :
(CNN) -- No charges will be filed against George Zimmerman after an alleged altercation with his estranged wife and her father, Lake Mary, Florida, Police Chief Steve Bracknell said Monday.
"Shellie Zimmerman has declined prosecution (after consulting with her attorney)," Bracknell said.
Hmm.
Oh man no way she could be concerned that he would be let off the hook entirely and then he might like idk shoot her for pressing charges or something there is ABSOLUTELY no basis for her to possibly believe that amirite?
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyMon Sep 09, 2013 6:29 pm

If that's the case, her lawyer sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: Boy killed for walking while black   Boy killed for walking while black - Page 39 EmptyTue Sep 10, 2013 10:12 am

Why talk about George Zimmerman when you can talk about the Zimmers?
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